Outriggers and rusty suspects..........

Moderators: theelanman, Sy V, Elanlover, muley, Enright, GeoffSmith, algirdas, nitroman, clemo, dapinky, Dave Eds, Specky, Nige, DaveT

Outriggers and rusty suspects..........

Postby simonbuk » Tue 29.03.2016, 07:55

Can somebody please enlighten me on what/where to look for the suspected rusty areas that seem to be cropping up more and more ?

Can you see the outriggers from laying underneath the car ?

I see from other threads that you need to pull the carpets up to inspect those panels inside the car, are these structural areas ?

If anybody could shed some light on these areas or even point me in the direction of some exploded diagrams it would be appreciated.

Getting more concerned as I try to get into Elan ownership that there are more things hiding under the plastic skin to be afraid of !!

Cheers,

Simon
Simon - Black S2. Simonthesailor

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did. So buy an Elan" - Mark Twain.
User avatar
simonbuk
God
 
Posts: 840
Joined: Sun 13.03.2016, 12:50
Location: Orpington, Kent, sometimes Worthing, West Sussex sometimes The World !!

Re: Outriggers and rusty suspects..........

Postby Rob P » Tue 29.03.2016, 09:00

Hi Simon,
I would suggest a read of the attached topic which shows a number of photo's of the perils of rusty outriggers and the like. I don't believe you can see any of this from outside the car, you really need to be lifting carpets and checking for damp in the footwells and behind the seats to have any clues of what lurks in these areas
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=17298

When I checked my own car I found that there was sound proofing material under the carpet which just acts as a sponge holding the water in place, this has been changed for something which doesn't hold water and I have worked on stopping as many of the leaks as possible. My car only needed minimal welding to repair the front , the rears were fine so I would suggest some cars are considerably worse than others and maybe this is due to being stored outside without a cover.
Rob P
simplify and add lightness
1991 Norfolk Mustard Yellow SE - Gone but will never be forgotten :-)
1969 Lotus Elan S4 - Wedgewood Blue
User avatar
Rob P
Fanatic
 
Posts: 709
Joined: Wed 20.02.2013, 17:35
Location: Preston, Lancs

Re: Outriggers and rusty suspects..........

Postby simonbuk » Tue 29.03.2016, 10:03

Thank you, good read !

My understanding of an 'outrigger' after TVR ownership was round tubing that could be seen from under the car but I know now what it means on these cars. More like an inner sill/chassis frame section (?!), I know what I mean in my head.

I guess the only problem now is when viewing cars for sale is asking the seller if its ok to pull the seats/carpet/trim out !!
Simon - Black S2. Simonthesailor

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did. So buy an Elan" - Mark Twain.
User avatar
simonbuk
God
 
Posts: 840
Joined: Sun 13.03.2016, 12:50
Location: Orpington, Kent, sometimes Worthing, West Sussex sometimes The World !!

Re: Outriggers and rusty suspects..........

Postby dapinky » Tue 29.03.2016, 11:33

Simon,

Please don't let the worry of the outriggers (which as you correctly state, aren't really 'outriggers' at all, but sill strengthening structures, but that is what they appear to have now been accepted to be called by us lot!!) put you off too much...

...it's just the latest scare/worry amongst a paranoid group of people (of which I am a fully paid-up member) looking for the next project :lol:

As with any car, as the elan is getting older, different things are discovered which will need looking at/addressing. If you liken it to the human body it may be thinking something like this:-

500 years ago people didn't seem to suffer from many of the diseases/conditions which now plague us - not because they didn't/couldn't exist, but simply because the sufferer would die defore they became an issue. As society discovers a way to deal with each deadly illness, life expectancy increases, so a different condition gets the chance to emerge. When an average male was only expected to live until they were 45 years old, very few suffered from dementia, cancer or other such (more common, but now being investigated/treated) ailments... at that time you would get an infection and die. (unless you were killed in battle). Once antibiotics came along, and warfare changed, so life expectancy changed and other things eventually caused us to pass on - so it is with cars.

There will always be a 'new' car-killer to emerge - until someone finds a way to address it, and then it simply passes into an age-related issue, not a death warrant.

In the past 10 years I have seen various things crop up - all of which sounded like a possible end-of-the-road scenario for many elans, but each of them have been addressed in one way or another by the resourseful owners, and passed on to the rest of us.

I fully accept that if you own a well-maintained and protected SE/NA elan, then you may still be driving around on original wishbones, top links, brakes, fuel tank, etc - and have no rust evident in your outriggers, chassis, seat mounts (which actually ARE outriggers!) and door hinges..... but many/most of us are not that fortunate and have had to address the known issues at some time during their life.

At one point it was the rear wishbones which were the major problem area, then once they were changed it became the front wishbones, then a possible problem with the fuel tank was discovered, etc etc etc.

The current area of concern is the rusty sills, but it is now becoming (or even has become) a documented repairable item - albeit that we'd rather not have to do it if it can be avoided.

I actually believe that the next 'elan killer' will be the lower door hinges - once they rust away that's it :shock: (over the past 6 years most rusty hinges have been addressed by changing the whole door - but now there are none left :( )........

.......except a couple of us have done (or had done by someone else) a fairly simple welding repair which requires a total strip-down and partial dismantling of the bonded sections of the affected door (along with associated repair/reassembly) - not quick, quite fiddly to get right, and makes absolutely no difference to either the drivability or cosmetic look of the vehicle (hence it may get ignored or put off until it totaly fails, which is a shame, because early repair is far easier that late replacement!) - but if it rusts to a point of becoming non-rigid, your doors will droop when open, and (more importantly, really!) the side-impact protection becomes virtually nil as the metal brace in the door isn't attached to anything.


So now I'm just waiting for the next issue to arise, as all of the currently-known problems have been assessed and repaired as necessary - but something else will undoubtably become an issue fairly soon. Then it'll be addressed, sorted out, and the elan will creep slowly towards it's telegram from the queen.

(This was meant to be a message of encouragement, but reading it back it sounds more like a quote from Pvt Godfrey "We're all doooomed".)
Dave

Just the one now, but this one's mine! - and it will be finished eventually.....

go on - click this link - you know you want to!
User avatar
dapinky
Moderator
 
Posts: 7664
Joined: Sun 15.10.2006, 12:54
Location: As far west as you can get in West Wales before you become Irish (Pembroke Dock).

Re: Outriggers and rusty suspects..........

Postby maz_r » Tue 29.03.2016, 11:55

Pvt Frazer.

(Pvt Godfrey = "Might I be excused?")

Meanwhile, back on topic.....
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those that understand binary.....
User avatar
maz_r
Binary Bodger
 
Posts: 610
Joined: Sun 05.07.2009, 20:36
Location: Solihull, West Midlands

Re: Outriggers and rusty suspects..........

Postby theelanman » Tue 29.03.2016, 11:56

:agree:

dapinky wrote:reading it back it sounds more like a quote from Pvt Godfrey "We're all doooomed"


:poke: do you mean Pvt Frazer.....??

good write up BTW......
nowt wrong with a rusty rigger......
as has been mentioned.....its a job that can be done...and repair made if req'd
I’m normally not a praying man, but if you’re up there, please save me, Superman.
User avatar
theelanman
Moderator
 
Posts: 7051
Joined: Fri 30.04.2004, 15:52
Location: peak district

Re: Outriggers and rusty suspects..........

Postby dapinky » Tue 29.03.2016, 13:27

Oops, my bad - I got the wrong character, but at least a couple of you old buggers knew what I meant (and are only too happy to publicly shame me by mentioning it).
Dave

Just the one now, but this one's mine! - and it will be finished eventually.....

go on - click this link - you know you want to!
User avatar
dapinky
Moderator
 
Posts: 7664
Joined: Sun 15.10.2006, 12:54
Location: As far west as you can get in West Wales before you become Irish (Pembroke Dock).

Re: Outriggers and rusty suspects..........

Postby Artaban » Tue 29.03.2016, 15:43

Simon,
The practicalities of buying a car mean that you will inevitably miss something unless the seller is very honest and points out the bad points as well as the good. Even then it can develop a fault on the drive home for which nobody can be blamed. I would say that you really need to budget a few thousand on top of the price you pay for the car if you are looking in the £4-£6k bracket. I'm certainly not saying that they are all trouble at this price but there is nothing worse than a surprise fault, the sun shining and no money to repair it. I've spent close to £20K on my car since 2010 and it was a well looked after car when I bought it. Its still not perfect and it needs the odd bit of work done so I don't think you'll ever find one that you can just drive about like a Ford Fiesta and service once a year. However I'm a perfectionist so I can't live with strange squeaks and rattles; maybe you could.

Personally I think it would be better to look more for an enthusiast owned car with a shed load of receipts in recent years than for a car with particular problem areas resolved (like rusty outriggers). Mileage is not really an issue as I've seen some truly dreadful low owner 45k milers and some mint 100K plus cars. Be prepared to see a few. I wouldn't buy from a dealer because I want to see the whites of the eyes of the last owner to see how much of an enthusiast they are. But then I've spent my life in sales and its obvious to me when people are covering something up or pretending to be something they aren't (like a careful honest owner). If you can I'd wait for something to come up on this forum. However I can understand being keen to get one in time for the summer; hopefully we'll have one.
Good luck,
Andrew
My wife's just divorced me because I wouldn't open the car door for her!
To be fair I panicked and swam straight for the surface.
User avatar
Artaban
Fanatic
 
Posts: 481
Joined: Tue 09.02.2010, 07:24
Location: Tiverton, Devon UK

Re: Outriggers and rusty suspects..........

Postby Fredjohn » Tue 29.03.2016, 18:48

Certainly all good advice above. I bought my car "blind": ignorance is either bliss or disastrous. I was lucky I found a good one. Totally unaware of the potential disaster, I jacked my car up using the front point almost as soon as I got it. Fortunately nothing untoward happened.

BUT if you are unsure about the outriggers/sills, ask the owner to jack the car up on each point in turn to a reasonable height! If they are seriously rusty it will no doubt twist creak and groan at best, at worst give way and the seller would have to repair it! No risk to you then!!!!!!!!! If it stays really solid, both front and rear wheels will come off the ground on the same side (NB the S2 only has the front jacking points anyway: see WikiLEC).

Whilst this is not a substitute for poking around the seat belt mount, carpet removal or camera insertion down the B post, it should give a guide to the strength of the steel structure. And if the seller is unwilling to do it, wonder why and maybe walk away. But as said in previous posts, all is not lost if you are prepared for a bit of work and repairing.

Good luck in your continued search.
La vie passe vite: vivez la avec elan(s).

Elan S4 DHC 1969
Elan SE turbo 1992
MB CLK 320CDi 2007
Boardman Team Carbon road bike
Evora 2010
VW T4 Campervan
User avatar
Fredjohn
God
 
Posts: 1385
Joined: Tue 21.08.2012, 00:30
Location: Malvern, Worcs

Re: Outriggers and rusty suspects..........

Postby clemo » Tue 29.03.2016, 19:38

maz_r wrote:Pvt Frazer.

(Pvt Godfrey = "Might I be excused?")

.....



Chris Goffey Top Gear road test of M100.
There seems to be a lot of water ingression in the passenger footwell . Lotus assure me that this will be dealt with before ....
Jim Clark S2 on the way . The one with the Yellow spoke wheels .
User avatar
clemo
Moderator
 
Posts: 4041
Joined: Mon 21.04.2003, 23:24
Location: TORQUAY .WESTSIDE well south west side in the southern bit.


Return to Chassis & Steering

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest