What to do about heavy rust around the outriggers

[HJ2]

why is it that this topic scares me?

[norman lovie]

Its an ownership evolution phase as the cars are getting older, long term ownership becomes more of a restoration thing, absolutely nothing to fear here, and nothing that can't be sorted
you'll have noted from some of my posts that I've become a bit rust paranoid - but - at some point you need to take a step back and think
1) OK now i've got obvious visual rust issues - the outriggers being an example - do I fix the bits I see - or?
2) OK if there is rust where I can see it - is there also rust where I can't ? - why spend time and effort fixing the obvious whilst the hidden stuff is rotting away

and if you decide on option 2, then this will lead to the tub coming off the chassis - and once the tub is off the chassis, you've kinda decided - its potentially a long term resto project - ok - new idea's - new tools - new techniques - and lots of garage time = for some - for some

and if you've gone down this route - then outrigger repair is just one more challenge and easier to get at

it also means - you need x 2 Elan's
and, whilst your enjoying time in the garage and you've got it all in bits, you have fantasy moments and find out daft things like - you could move the engine into the storage hood area and create a mid engined rear wheel drive version - see! a bit of rust can lead to daft things

[andy b]

DSCN0778.JPG

Thanks for the forum i have ordered a rear kit from america. been to vauxhall today to try and get a front slider kit £40 + just ordered 2 from ebay £22 still doing TLC on the élan. painting chassis front all is sound but needs a bit of paint. i have pulled back the carpet front drivers side. been reading about the jacking points got me a bit worried that thread. when the car comes off the ramp i will strip out the seats and carpets to have a good look fingers crossed it will be as good as the pick below. i will continue the jobs under the correct heading mr moderator sorry for the double posting.

[Enright]

The above post didn't have much to do with brakes so based on the pic I've moved it into this thread which I think is more appropriate.

[andy b]

DSCN0819.JPG

DSCN0817.JPG

DSCN0821.JPG

Driver side first lucky caught it early i have noticed there is a lot of anti rust goo in the inside not sure if lotus done this or a privies owner still good news for me some people have worked hard on there cars in this thread.

[epipete]

Caught it in time, well done. Now, see that early rust - kill it off.

And, I'd recommend changing the underlay for closed cell foam

Pete

[dapinky]

This has been my job-of-the-day today (well, i started a few days ago, but couldn't get the welding done until today due to the weather)

... they were far worse than yours, but nowhere near as bad as some others I've seen.

The jacking points only had a bit of surface rust (now gone), the 'B' post bits were fine, but some of the steel membrane had rotted along the lower edge.

A bit of a trim with a grinder, cut the old sikaflex away with a stanley knife, weld a new galvanised strip in - job done!

re-sikaflexed it, replaced the rusted rivets which attach the membrane to the fibreglass lower cill with stainless bolts, sprayed cavity wax everywhere, replaced soundproofing with closed cell foam - waiting for it all to dry before I start on the carpets.

[andy b]

This has been my job-of-the-day today (well, i started a few days ago, but couldn't get the welding done until today due to the weather)

... they were far worse than yours, but nowhere near as bad as some others I've seen.

The jacking points only had a bit of surface rust (now gone), the 'B' post bits were fine, but some of the steel membrane had rotted along the lower edge.

A bit of a trim with a grinder, cut the old sikaflex away with a stanley knife, weld a new galvanised strip in - job done!

re-sikaflexed it, replaced the rusted rivets which attach the membrane to the fibreglass lower cill with stainless bolts, sprayed cavity wax everywhere, replaced soundproofing with closed cell foam - waiting for it all to dry before I start on the carpets.

I was not sure about the rivets thought they were bolts it looks to me as if when the car was built they pulldown on them thats what cracks the paint and the rust sets in. I have still to do the n/side tomorrow fingers crossed it's as good. I have had the car about 3 years i thought they were the same as the esprit all galvanised i hate working on rust, But the élan is worth it great car to drive and worth the work

[Steve A]

This has been my job-of-the-day today (well, i started a few days ago, but couldn't get the welding done until today due to the weather)

... they were far worse than yours, but nowhere near as bad as some others I've seen.

The jacking points only had a bit of surface rust (now gone), the 'B' post bits were fine, but some of the steel membrane had rotted along the lower edge.

A bit of a trim with a grinder, cut the old sikaflex away with a stanley knife, weld a new galvanised strip in - job done!

re-sikaflexed it, replaced the rusted rivets which attach the membrane to the fibreglass lower cill with stainless bolts, sprayed cavity wax everywhere, replaced soundproofing with closed cell foam - waiting for it all to dry before I start on the carpets.

Some photo's would be nice (when you get time)

[dapinky]

Some photo's would be nice (when you get time)

Unfortunately, i'm now past the point where you can see them.....

I've got the underfelt glued in place

[Steve A]

Some photo's would be nice (when you get time)

Unfortunately, i'm now past the point where you can see them.....

I've got the underfelt glued in place

When your getting something so important sorted photo's are the last thing on your mind

[andy b]

The passenger side had a little more rust than the drivers side. but the jacking points are fine. i have ground the rust out and yes it is holed but i cannot see the sense in welding them up as it will be a moisture trap again. the seat belt anchor is fine. when you look at it there is only the jacking points and seat belt fixing to worry about. I would recommend on reflection removal of the rivets on the bottom flange as there is electrolytic action between the rivet and steel once it has rusted on this flange the bond between the steel and body is weakened so bolts with good washers will suffice as a good fix. I do recommend you inspect this area of the car and get some protection in there also replace the rivets with bolts.
This is all relevant to the amount of rust there is in there when the jacking points or seat belt anchor has rusted away you have to look at fabricating new and welding in I would just spot weld the repair section in not seam weld.
or it may sound daft but i think you could use mono metal pop rivets to effect repairs if you don't have a welder.
AEROPLANES ARE RIVETED TOGETHER Before you say no way with rivets. Think about side impact most cars will strike you in the door not the sill so as long as you can jack the car with no problem they are strong enough. and after all it's got to be better than rusted away steel.
Just an opinion andy b

[dapinky]

Andy,

whilst i accept that airplanes (and rockets!) are rivetted together, they don't need to pass a UK MOT test!

Have a look at this article for full details, but basically it has to be welded (seam welding, not spot welding, but with exceptions).

The main contentious issue is that the areas we are talking about are well within the 30cm of Jacking points and seat belt fixings, and so are "Load bearing" structures....

... however, because they are hidden between the fibreglass outer sill and the carpet, they cannot be accessed and assessed by an MOT tester - so as long as the "give the seat belt a tug" test is passed, the car won't fail on the dangerous corrossion

As for the methoid of repair - it HAS to be at least as strong as the original (underlying principle of all MOT repairs) - and spot welding (or plug welding) is only acceptable in certain situations - all welding should be continuous seam welding.

Right, that's the official bit - however, as you rightly said, a rivetted panel is FAR better than rust-attached-to-thin-air.

The main point is to check what they are like, and address the problem in whatever way you see fit, knowing that they won't fail an MOT, but your life could be at risk

[andy b]

Agreed dave on every point.
My worry is people will avoid looking i have made the post so members will at least look and it gives them an alternative repair method rather than head in the sand.
I did go and have a look at an élan which a chap had bought when he jacked it up the doors would not open or close and he sold it as a restoration project this is what made me look into the cause. I had not seen the post before. As i have stated before i thought they were all galvanised from new. how wrong i was.
But the cars are well worth saving a great driver.
andy b

[dapinky]

Andy,

Yep - we agree.

Head-in-the-sand is not a viable option, and any remedial work is better than leaving it alone and hoping it will go away.

If we can encourage everyone to look and address the problems earlier rather than later, more cars will be saved, and less potential injuries (or worse) will occurr.

[epipete]

I think that the rust issue for our cars is pretty well understood and component replacement or remedial activities are well documented with the exception of the rear outriggers where the B post meets (it's difficult to diagnose on both sides but nigh on impossible on the NS where it is completely hidden by the fuel tank). I know that there has been one attempt at repairing using a box section (going in in through the wheel arch) but don't know how successful this was.

The article Dave put up is interesting, particularly the diagnosis which states:

Having identified the important load bearing members and ‘prescribed areas’ on a vehicle, the tester should determine whether they are excessively corroded, firstly by visual inspection and then by finger and thumb pressure.

If necessary, the Corrosion Assessment Tool should be used to assess the extent of any corrosion by careful scraping or light tapping of the affected areas.

Impossible, I guess, in these area but what is the level of structural importance in these zones?

I fear we all have our heads in the sand and look forward to the groups innovative membership to resolve this matter

Pete

[basher]

"

I know that there has been one attempt at repairing using a box section (going in in through the wheel arch) but don't know how successful this was.
Pete

Just to clarify, it wasn't a box section, it was a right angledish (101 degrees from memory) single piece of steel, it's all laid out with photo's earlier in this thread.
Rust was removed, it jacks up without creaks or disappearing jacks, structural integrity is restored and its virtually invisible so as far as I'm concerned, pretty successful.

[epipete]

Sorry Basher, I phrased that badly, I understood that you had achieved a happy outcome I didn't mean to suggest otherwise.

[fillpoke]

I've pulled back from a 'head in the sand' perspective and removed what seemed like lots of interior to expose and inspect my outriggers. O/S is ok and N/S is not bad .....BUT there's one area towards the rear of the N/S outrigger that, after hammering etc, can be seen to have rusted through. The very end of this outrigger seems ok (mobile phone camera photo through hole in outrigger shows it to be good). So I've just got this one problem area and I'm wondering what to do about it. I could thoroughly derust it, treat it with rustkiller, paint it with 90% zinc paint and then finally spray wax over it inside and out........OR I could cut it out and have a new section welded in. The thing is do I really need to go that far. It's only one small section of a long piece of folded metal so will the structural integrity have been compromised? If I just stop the rust and prevent it getting worse in the future would that do? WHAT WOULD YOU DO???? All advice most gratefully received.
Thanks.
Dave

outrigger 3.jpg

[dapinky]

Dave,

As with everything, the choice is yours, and yours alone....

...The only real 'proper' way to deal with it is to cut it out back to sound metal and weld a new bit in....

...but....

Your's is nowhere near as bad as many that I've seen, and as long as the actual jacking points are sound, then structural work may not be 100% necessary (or is that a contradiction to my first staement?)

If it were me, I'd chop and weld (but as I'd do it myself, it is easy) - from your earlier writing, I am assuming that you would need to get someone to weld a bit in for you, and that may not be cost-effective (or time effective).

As a compromise, you could chop out the rusty bits yourself and then just get a plate welded in to the clean, sound metal.

But, as the plate (where you have circled) is the least structural of the metalwork, you can get away without - it is the top edge of the 'frame' which is actually folded round 3 sides of a rectangle to be at the bottom (does that make any sense?), and is bonded to the fibreglass with sikaflex and a few bolts..... it doesn't really do much.

Quickest and easiest way is to remove as much unsound metal as you can, rustproof what is left, and maybe bond it back to the fibreglass with either Sikaflex or even fibreglass matting and resin.

Whatever you do, it will be better than rusty metal joined to thin air!

(and replace the underfelt with closed-cell foam to stop any water being held against the rotted bits in the future).