Not making expected boost?

[JonT]

Been out for a run for the first time with ElanScan. No major issues, but looking at the boost graph it's only making 0.55-0.6 bar max. I've got the Everest 1499 chip so was expecting a bit more - that seems like standard? Throttle log shows I was reaching full throttle and the top of the boost graph is flat, suggesting it's being held at ~0.55 bar. Wastegate duty cycle shows 80% around these readings. Does that mean it's sticking? No knock recorded. Injector duty also shows around 80% max.

Any thoughts about why I might not be making more boost?

cheers,

Jon

[rip]

Boost should max out at .65bar with a stock ecu.
Everest should be 0.9
Elanscan should be a lot more accurate than the dash gauge.

Any chance you can upload your log file? I think you need to zip the file for the site to accept it.

[JonT]

You should be able to get it here:
http://www.lizandjon.me.uk/malmesbury.zip
(easier to shovel it onto my web server than work out how to attach files )

Car was warm at the start. I was hoping to log for an hour or so, but the netbook shut off and I lost the trace. I've now fixed the power settings on it for next time. You can see a couple of runs early on where I was at full throttle through the gears.

/edit to fix link and add - the dash gauge only shows 0.5 bar too, but I figured with the everest it was probably lieing - hence using elanscan to see what was actually going on.

Looking at the Wiki, I'm wondering if it's a sticky actuator.

[GeoffSmith]

The ECU is telling the BCFV to up the boost (I think 80% duty cycle is the maximum) but something isn't happening as you would normally expect to see those levels of boost with ~20% duty cycle. The wastegate is probably the first port of call - look for wiggle in the Wiki.

[saska]

Been out for a run for the first time with ElanScan. No major issues, but looking at the boost graph it's only making 0.55-0.6 bar max. I've got the Everest 1499 chip so was expecting a bit more - that seems like standard? Throttle log shows I was reaching full throttle and the top of the boost graph is flat, suggesting it's being held at ~0.55 bar. Wastegate duty cycle shows 80% around these readings. Does that mean it's sticking? No knock recorded. Injector duty also shows around 80% max.
Any thoughts about why I might not be making more boost?

Jon, looking at your scan the following points are of note:
1. You're making ~190Hp @ 6300RPM in 3rd gear which may be a calculated value but nevertheless is very decent output.
2. Idle spark advance (780 sec) seems to be approx 6 BTDC instead of 16 BTDC
Reasons for low boost:
1. You're losing pressure somewhere between the turbo and the intake manifold.
2. Either the MAP sensor is duff or is being fooled but this doesn't seem likely since the boost gauge is reporting the same reading. They are 2 separate systems; the MAP reports to the ECU, the boost sensor on the inner wing reports to the gauge.
3. The BCFV is opening the turbo wastegate too much/too soon or it isn't closing all the way. The already mentioned wastegate wiggle would appear a must.
Were I in your shoes I'd check the following:
1. Base timing
2. All the hoses to/from intercooler and to intake manifold
3. Check the hoses to BCFV and from there to wastegate actuator
4. Ensure the wastegate closes fully
5. Check there isn't a fuel cut defenser, blow off valve, BBR kit, etc. -- see HERE

[JonT]

Jon, looking at your scan the following points are of note:
1. You're making ~190Hp @ 6300RPM in 3rd gear which may be a calculated value but nevertheless is very decent output.
5. Check there isn't a fuel cut defenser, blow off valve, BBR kit, etc

I was driving downhill for that one (no, really). I'm pretty sure there's no other kits on - this is Phil's old car. I'll start with the wastegate wiggle and go from there. Thanks for the suggestions

[JonT]

Looking at another log I did with it on the drive, the base timing starts at around 16 BTDC, then as the car warms up/is revved a few times (but not actually moving), it drops slowly towards 6 and seems to settle there. When the Wiki says "To increase the timing degrees, raise the front of the CAS a tiny increment by gently tapping it upwards; to decrease the timing degrees, lower the front of the CAS a tiny increment by gently tapping it downwards." presumably going from 6 to 16 degrees BTDC is "increasing" timing degrees?

[John_W]

Elanscan doesn't show base timing, only dynamic advance. You have to set base timing using a strobe light and the timing marks on the crankshaft pulley while the ECU is in Service Mode (use a paperclip to bridge the black and black/white wires on the ALDL plug under the glove box - see here.).
However that will not be the reason you're not seeing the expected boost; incorrect base timing would result in the available boost not being used efficiently.
John

[rip]

Elanscan doesn't show base timing, only dynamic advance. You have to set base timing using a strobe light and the timing marks on the crankshaft pulley while the ECU is in Service Mode (use a paperclip to bridge the black and black/white wires on the ALDL plug under the glove box - see here.).
However that will not be the reason you're not seeing the expected boost; incorrect base timing would result in the available boost not being used efficiently.
John

[JonT]

Finally able to get out with ElanScan again having done the wiggle. Unfortunately no change (log pretty much identical to before). Next step will be chasing pressured pipes from the wastegate capsule and the intercooler pipes.

[JonT]

Still stuck on this. Have now changed the pipes and clips from the capsule back past the boost controller valve to the inlet manifold and changed all the jubilee clips on the large diameter hoses to/from the intercooler. A couple of the clips had gone rotten and wouldn't tighten so I was hoping swapping those out would sort it, but no luck The intercooler looks okay, no sign of splits (I guess unless the endcaps have started to crack off) - any other ideas how to narrow this down?

[tigerdog]

There are a couple of ECU inputs that regulate boost-making. Make sure ElanScan shows 100% throttle when the accelerator is floored. If not, you won't make 100% boost. Usual culprits are misadjusted throttle cable (preventing throttle opening) and misadjusted Throttle Position Sensor (reading <100% when the throttle truly is open.) Also check the coolant temp; ECU won't allow full boost unless the engine is thoroughly warm. How about posting the most recent ElanScan?

[tigerdog]

Ignore the bit about the TPS - the first scan looks fine. However, I have a hunch: is it possible your car is fitted with a 3BAR MAP sensor? I ask because Smaug has a 3Bar plus 550cc injectors. In order for ElanScan to show the correct boost, you have to change a value in ElanScan's .ini file. I happened to open your scan with the 3Bar value in place and noticed peak boost at .9 Bar.

[JonT]

Ignore the bit about the TPS - the first scan looks fine. However, I have a hunch: is it possible your car is fitted with a 3BAR MAP sensor? I ask because Smaug has a 3Bar plus 550cc injectors. In order for ElanScan to show the correct boost, you have to change a value in ElanScan's .ini file. I happened to open your scan with the 3Bar value in place and noticed peak boost at .9 Bar.

Hmmm, interesting. How would I tell that the car has a different MAP sensor? Presumably if it did the Everest would also need to be non-standard to allow for this correctly?

[JonT]

Doing a bit more searching seems to suggest that if a 3 bar map sensor was fitted the baro pressure in elanscan would show 0.71 bar? (viewtopic.php?f=34&t=18187&p=237839&hilit=+bar+map#p237839), but the baro pressure looks normal in mine. Hmmm....

[GeoffSmith]

[trig]

Jon, I cant offer any technical help here but if you need to swap/loan any parts with mine to find the culprit ,, the inter-cooler should be easy to swap, I also have a spare engine with most parts fitted and working CAS etc

Steve

[JonT]

Thanks Steve, a very generous offer. I'm going to try to knock up something next weekend so I can use a foot pump to pressurise the intake system and see if I can hear any leaks. After that I may well be in touch.

The map sensor post above made me realise there are probably more hoses off the inlet manifold/plenum that I haven't checked. I guess they're all potential sources of leaks?

In the meantime - am I likely to be doing the car any harm by continuing to use it? It's still capable of making good progress, and TBH if I hadn't had the elanscan I'm not sure I would have realised I was down on power!

[tigerdog]

Doing a bit more searching seems to suggest that if a 3 bar map sensor was fitted the baro pressure in elanscan would show 0.71 bar? (viewtopic.php?f=34&t=18187&p=237839&hilit=+bar+map#p237839), but the baro pressure looks normal in mine. Hmmm....

DOH!

It's a bit embarrassing when someone corrects you by quoting your own post. I'll get me coat...

[saska]

The map sensor post above made me realise there are probably more hoses off the inlet manifold/plenum that I haven't checked. I guess they're all potential sources of leaks?

RayD posted a diagram of the plenum vacuum hoses.

In the meantime - am I likely to be doing the car any harm by continuing to use it?

I wouldn't think so. Your scan looks like a perfectly normal stock 1499 closed loop.
What's bugging me is the consistent behaviour of .58 Bar boost which is exactly the stock setting. It is almost as if you had a stock 1499 installed instead of a 1499 Everest.
What does the white writing on the main SST chip on the Moates board say ?