A tale of torques... (timing belt etc)

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A tale of torques... (timing belt etc)

Postby madbilly » Sat 01.12.2018, 22:33

Hi everyone!

Long time no post :cry: over the past few years lift has just got more complicated.

So I decided to make it even more complicated by changing the timing belt! :D

Here's how I got the crankshaft nut off :D
Image

That's over 6' of scaffold pole (I think, didn't actually measure it, I agree it looks shorter in the picture).

The rest of the strip down was just hard work and fiddly but I got there in the end.

Now, I also have new pulleys and water pump. I managed to remove the tensioner pulley no problem, but the idler... er, well, you can see:
Image

That's a 3/8" breaker bar which I had to use with an adapter as my spline socket is 1/4" drive, maybe the adapter caused a stress point. the bar is Clarke Pro, does anyone have any experience with their "lifetime guarantee"?

So, given I've broken a breaker bar, should I continue to try and replace the idler or not bother? The pulley spins very easily, almost too easily. I hear very faint scratch noises as it turns, suggesting there's muck in the bearing. My new pulley also has a ding in the side, it must have been dropped at some point (possibly by me), do you think there's a risk of this fouling the belt? Is grinding it down a good or bad idea?
Image

The water pump I have is a Beck Arnley one and looks very similar to the Aisin one which is one there except that bottom edge is the wrong shape, as has been noted before. Grind and fit? Or don't bother and just order one that will fit for next time I change the timing belt (I'll barely drive any miles in the meantime, I'm realistic about this :( )?

I also read somewhere that it's better to have a water pump with slightly rounded teeth, but the Aisin and Beck Arnley ones both appear to have square top teeth. Do round teeth really matter then?
Image

Anyway, glad to be back with you, even if it'll unfortunately be short-lived again.

Cheers,
Will :)
Last edited by madbilly on Sun 02.12.2018, 07:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A tale of torques... (timing belt etc)

Postby Brit-Car-Nut » Sat 01.12.2018, 23:00

madbilly wrote:Hi everyone!

Long time no post :cry: over the past few years lift has just got more complicated.

So I decided to make it even more complicated by changing the timing belt! :D

Here's how I got the crankshaft nut off :D
Image

That's over 6' of scaffold pole (I think, didn't actually measure it, I agree it looks shorter in the picture).

The rest of the strip down was just hard work and fiddly but I got there in the end.

Now, I also have new pulleys and water pump. I managed to remove the tensioner pulley no problem, but the idler... er, well, you can see:
Image
That's a 3/8" breaker bar which I had to use with an adapter as my spline socket is 1/4" drive, maybe the adapter caused a stress point. the bar is Clarke Pro, does anyone have any experience with their "lifetime guarantee"?

I would replace the pulley. Buy a better breaker bar... AND a 3/8 spline socket. You will use them again, so invest in good tools.

So, given I've broken a breaker bar, should I continue to try and replace the idler or not bother? The pulley spins very easily, almost too easily. I hear very faint scratch noises as it turns, suggesting there's muck in the bearing. My new pulley also has a ding in the side, it must have been dropped at some point (possibly by me), do you think there's a risk of this fouling the belt? Is grinding it down a good or bad idea?
Image

I would use some fine emory / wet/dry and sand it to make sure there are no sharp edges and use it.

The water pump I have is a Beck Arnley one and looks very similar to the Aisin one which is on there except that bottom edge is the wrong shape, as has been noted before. Grind and fit? Or don't bother and just order one that will fit for next time I change the timing belt (I'll barely drive any miles in the meantime, I'm realistic about this :( )?

You know that Murphy's Law says it will fail the next time you drive it.

I also read somewhere that it's better to have a water pump with slightly rounded teeth, but the Aisin and Beck Arnley ones both appear to have square top teeth. Do round teeth really matter then?
Image

Yes, the teeth matter, but the teeth you picture are rounded. The other (square) teeth are perfectly rectangular.

I would return it and get the correct pump. I would never grind the pump body to "make" it fit.


Anyway, glad to be back with you, even if it'll unfortunately be short-lived again.

Cheers,
Will :)
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Re: A tale of torques... (timing belt etc)

Postby madbilly » Sun 02.12.2018, 00:26

Thanks BCN,

I can't see the pics I linked now, can you still see them?
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Re: A tale of torques... (timing belt etc)

Postby Brit-Car-Nut » Sun 02.12.2018, 00:32

Yes. You have a very tight working area!
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Re: A tale of torques... (timing belt etc)

Postby Simon_P » Sun 02.12.2018, 05:50

Can't see any pictures just "no entry" signs.

The reason it is all difficult is because it hasn't been off for a While - Do you know how long?

If you used the breaker bar with an adapter and a 1/4 socket, that should be evidence enough that it isn't an abuse case. The way to find out about a guarantee is to ask for a replacement.

A little heat may help the bolt.

The water pump pulley teeth should fit the belt snugly. The ones that are wrong have a square rather than rounded root.

The water pump body is only a problem if it does not fit. It can be quite tricky to fit as there are 4 bolts. The two that I had a problem with, the bolt holes were off centre so I eased them. I wouldn't have a problem filing the body but first I would measure to identify what was wrong - only modify the piece that is wrong. Ie don't file the body if it is the bolt holes that are wrong.
I'm guessing that it's not easy to return the water pump.
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Re: A tale of torques... (timing belt etc)

Postby madbilly » Sun 02.12.2018, 08:01

Thanks Simon. I think I've sorted the photos now, you should be able to see them again.

Yes returning the pump will be tricky as I've had it a while and it came from Rock Auto, the other side of the pond, and they'd say it was my fault for buying a part for an Impulse.

I will remove to old pump and see if the new one fits then decide what to do.

For the idler pulley bolt, I'll just try my best to remove it without breaking anything else!
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Re: A tale of torques... (timing belt etc)

Postby dapinky » Sun 02.12.2018, 10:19

Hi Billy :smt006

I agree with virtually everything that has been said above.....

... but that's only theoretical, and advice I'd give to other people (because it is all correct!).

However, if it were me, I'd find a way to make it all work!

For the nick in the new idler, (as already said) a bit of a clean with emery paper/wet & dry will be fine - dips are no problem, just clear any raised bits at the edges which may cut into the belt over time - don't be tempted with a grinder, it will cause more work than it saves.

The waterpump teeth are fine - they are the right ones.

For the waterpump body, the 'correct' answer is from John - get a new one that's right........... but if it were my car, I'd whip the old one out and compare the two of them - IF the only difference is extra metal on the casting, I'd remove some of the excess - however, if it were a slightly different shape inside (to follow the outer casting), then I'd think about it a bit, and then either get a new one, or risk 'thinning' the metalwork by removing some....... but only if it actually fouls when trial-fitted.

As for the 'stuck' idler - when I did the one in my red car it was extremely 'stuck' - so much so that I ended up grinding the head off the bolt and slipping the idler off.... then the shaft came out with a pair of mole grips to break the seal, and finger pressure - the thread wasn't what was stuck, it was the head to the idler centre bush......

..... but I had the advantage that the head was on the workbench, and if it broke, it wasn't going to be the end of the world as I knew it - so, if you try that, it ain't my fault if anything snaps and you end up sitting on the floor in a puddle of tears.

I can't comment on Clarkes' guarantee, but as said, a failure like that shouldn't have happened - if anything, the adaper to a smaller socket should be the weaker link. Halfords Pro have always just replaced things no questions asked, and I would expect Clarkes (presumably through Machine Mart??) to be the same.
Dave

Just the one now, but this one's mine! - and it will be finished eventually.....

go on - click this link - you know you want to!
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Re: A tale of torques... (timing belt etc)

Postby madbilly » Sun 02.12.2018, 11:11

Hi Dave! :)

All good sage advice thanks, as from John and Simon.

I have a 1/2" drive spline socket and wrench set from a friend which I will try... With trepidation! I am not going to use any torque multipliers.

For the pump, I found this bizarrely available in France! https://www.oscaro.com/pompe-a-eau-aisi ... 509-1260-p

Still I will see if the one I have fits first.

Cheers :)

EDIT: There isn't enough room to use the 1/2" set, I'll just have to get more tools.

Water pump bottom right (front side) bolt is very difficult to get a tool on. The open end spanners I have are just starting to find the head off and there isn't enough clearance between it and the PAS bracket to get a ring spanner or socket on. Hmph! I may try and file off a bit of the bracket, just a little bit...
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Re: A tale of torques... (timing belt etc)

Postby HJ2 » Sun 02.12.2018, 13:14

No problem in grinding the waterpump housing as long as you know what you are doing. There is a topic about this particular problem.
I have ginded 2 pumps without any issues so far and it looks like the correct pump is a milled example of your pump.
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Re: A tale of torques... (timing belt etc)

Postby madbilly » Sun 02.12.2018, 13:53

Hi HJ2,

Yes I found that topic, it starts about whether they fail or not and ends with whether they even fit! I got my pump off (after removing rust from the PAS pump bracket to get the ring spanner on the bolt there) and I was happy to find that the casing on my new pump matches the old one. The impellers are slightly different, the new one is thicker, probably cast, but I don't think that will affect fitting.
Image
Image

The idler pulley bolt still has me stumped. For now.
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Re: A tale of torques... (timing belt etc)

Postby HJ2 » Sun 02.12.2018, 14:03

Well... at first impression I would reccomend to see if the tooth shape fit the belt shape as they appear not rounded to me!
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Re: A tale of torques... (timing belt etc)

Postby madbilly » Sun 02.12.2018, 14:45

Oh drat! You're right, well spotted. By itself it looked fine but compared to the old one it is clearly a different shape. With the belt on I can see it's not a perfect fit, there are tiny gaps between the belt and pulley.

Well that's put a downer on things. Thanks for spotting it though.
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Re: A tale of torques... (timing belt etc)

Postby Brit-Car-Nut » Sun 02.12.2018, 14:47

I was slow putting this together, but at least you see some examples.

I finally enlarged the picture and agree it seems to be a square tooth pulley on the pump you got.

Your NEW Pump:
MB.jpg


Picture of a Square tooth pump:
Square tooth.jpg


Picture of Round Tooth pump:
Rounded tooth.jpg


Picture from Beck Arnley for part# 131-2115
131-2115.png


The rounding is where the belt hits the center of the hub.

Check it carefully before installing.

If the pump you got isn't 131-2115, then it is the wrong one and if it IS that number, the wrong pump was put in the box.

The Airtex AW9220 is (was) correct when I did my belt. It seems that they all get confused over time.

The Gates 41053 picture shows it to be correct and it is a bit less expensive but it only is if the picture is right.

There is a pump listed on eBay UK for 16 quid, but the picture looks like a square tooth, not round.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Water-Pu ... 3070995588?

The scary part is he also lists the same part number in the US (for a higher price) and he has a different picture that looks like a round tooth
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Re: A tale of torques... (timing belt etc)

Postby madbilly » Sun 02.12.2018, 14:59

I got mixed up, the pump is an "Auto Xtra ProImport" part number PWP718, or AW9221. I bought it ages ago, there's no chance of sending it back.
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Re: A tale of torques... (timing belt etc)

Postby Brit-Car-Nut » Sun 02.12.2018, 23:15

You need the Aw9220 for the round tooth pulley. The later Isuzus and GEOs use the square tooth version, so can you order one from Rock Auto UK for a better price?

This one (from the US) would cost you £15.00 + £14.17 postage. I can't log into Rock Auto UK any more since they now check where I am from and only show me the US site.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Engine-W ... 2448842819

I ordered a couple, so will know in a week if they are really AW9220 and NOT AW9221.
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Re: A tale of torques... (timing belt etc)

Postby madbilly » Sun 02.12.2018, 23:55

Thanks for the refs.
Unfortunately the delivery time on that Ebay one is a lot longer than I want to wait, I'd prefer to get this finished next weekend.
This is what Rockauto list:
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=949063
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=73388
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=59480
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=474764

The Airtex one appears to have a rounded bottom edge whereas the others have a flat, slanted bottom edge like the pump I just took off - are you sure it fits? Not much price difference, although shipping costs are different on each one, I assume because they're in different warehouses in different parts of North America. The ACDelco one is best value for delivery by this weekend. However, Fedex would sting me for "admin" charges for paying the import VAT :evil: I could just use international economy delivery which may arrive by this weekend...

Or I order from SJ's or Kelvedon, probably twice the price but I'll be sure it will fit and easier to return if not...

Too late to decide now... need... sleep... :smt015

EDIT: That one I posted earlier from Oscaro appears to have square teeth.
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Re: A tale of torques... (timing belt etc)

Postby Brit-Car-Nut » Mon 03.12.2018, 00:07

I was under the impression that Rock Auto didn't expedite anything to the UK, so 7 to 10 days or more was the average wait. I have used the 3rd third item you listed and it fit and worked fine. I also have a Bosch and several more others on the shelf for future needs.

It's too bad DHL dropped out of the shipping business from the US. They deliver, but won't ship out of the US. FedEX and UPS are just crazy expensive to ship outside the US (for me).
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Re: A tale of torques... (timing belt etc)

Postby madbilly » Mon 03.12.2018, 13:06

I found that Rockauto will pay import VAT in advance so I can avoid Fedex's outrageous admin charges, so I went for the ACDelco one on priority shipping so I should get it later this week.

The Airtex 9220 is listed on several websites in Europe but is out of stock in all of them. Same for the Aisin WPG-904.

Now I just need to sort out the breaker bar and 3/8"drive spline socket for the idler pulley bolt.
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Re: A tale of torques... (timing belt etc)

Postby madbilly » Sun 09.12.2018, 16:20

The AC Delco one arrived from RockAuto and looks good. I needn't have paid extra for quick delivery though, since I haven't got the bolts yet!

I also couldn't find anywhere in Manosque that sold a 3/8" breaker bar, not even the FACOM dealers. Maybe this is an uncommon drive size in France, as I can't find many socket sets in 3/8" either.
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