RH pod not working

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Re: RH pod not working

Postby Rambo » Sat 06.10.2018, 16:39

It is probably the pod control module or pod delay module
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Re: RH pod not working

Postby Tuga2112 » Sat 06.10.2018, 19:18

Tuga2112 wrote:I've confirmed the problem to be the lift control unit (forgot technical name of the box)
Recorded a very crude video for YouTube to help the diagnostic process for others. Will be updating here soon

I will be re-recording the video i done because when i was checking the video, it turns out what i say in the video and what i do are not the same. in fact, i say to do something that is the very oposite to what you want to do, and in fact would at best blow a fuse... at worst.. cause a fire. clearly my control of the language is nowhere near as good as i would like it to be.
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Re: RH pod not working

Postby John_W » Sat 06.10.2018, 21:12

Beer is the answer!
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Re: RH pod not working

Postby Tuga2112 » Sat 06.10.2018, 22:32

pictures of the unit as is.

unfortunately, i cannot see anything that looks obviously burned/fried/damaged/shorted and all the continuity tests ive done between PCB connections (hope thats the right term) were good.

im asking a friend who has some better knowledge of circuitry for a second opinion before giving up the fight. part of my plan for tomorow is to hook up 12v supply and bench test the module to confirm the relay is clicking correctly.

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Re: RH pod not working

Postby Brit-Car-Nut » Sun 07.10.2018, 00:33

Two things have been shown to happen to the modules: Drive transistors burned and the relay inside breaking.

Next time, take high detailed pictures of both sides of the circuit board so we can see everything n one view. We can look at section after section and see the continuity.

One or two pictures of each side of the entire board is better than a few pictures of different sections. Paul's pictures are well lit and clearly show an overheated drive chip.

Sometimes, bouncing between different posts will get people confused as they try to figure out what is now and what is history.
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Re: RH pod not working

Postby Rambo » Sun 07.10.2018, 08:15

Why not swap over a working pod module from your other car then you'll be able to confirm if it's a duffer

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Re: RH pod not working

Postby GeoffSmith » Sun 07.10.2018, 13:13

John_W wrote:
Brit-Car-Nut wrote:You guys can always host the photos yourselves and then provide a link...

That’s what I used to do until my Internet provider decided that they didn’t want to host anybody’s webspace any more. TalkTalk - don’t ya love them? I don’t. :evil:

Just click on the internet symbol under my avatar to see their friendly message. £43.50 a month for an internet speed of 1.3 megabits/sec and now no web hosting. Barstewards.

Yep. But then there's useful free resources like Photobucket… who after accumulating a vast library of other people's useful stuff now want to charge for other people to see it. At the moment, I use Imgur.com but I wonder how long it will be before the ugly head of capitalism rears its ugly heed.
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Re: RH pod not working

Postby Tuga2112 » Sun 07.10.2018, 13:57

GeoffSmith wrote:
John_W wrote:
Brit-Car-Nut wrote:You guys can always host the photos yourselves and then provide a link...

That’s what I used to do until my Internet provider decided that they didn’t want to host anybody’s webspace any more. TalkTalk - don’t ya love them? I don’t. :evil:

Just click on the internet symbol under my avatar to see their friendly message. £43.50 a month for an internet speed of 1.3 megabits/sec and now no web hosting. Barstewards.

Yep. But then there's useful free resources like Photobucket… who after accumulating a vast library of other people's useful stuff now want to charge for other people to see it. At the moment, I use Imgur.com but I wonder how long it will be before the ugly head of capitalism rears its ugly heed.
i share your thoughts on the topic. originally i used a provider called imageshack. which gone the exact same route as photobucket

whenever tinyPic takes the same route i will investigate the possibility of hosting my own, as storage becomes increasingly cheaper and i could use FTP access to mass dump/upload pictures. when required.

but back on topic

Rambo wrote:Why not swap over a working pod module from your other car then you'll be able to confirm if it's a duffer

that was done a couple of ours ago. currently my blue car is "headlamp control module"-less and the yellow is working as you would expect.
this buys me time to continue investigating the circuitry. in my opinion, if SJS can refurbish them.. i dont see how i cant... its just a matter of learning enought about the subject untill im capable of diagnosing the system.

Brit-Car-Nut wrote:Two things have been shown to happen to the modules: Drive transistors burned and the relay inside breaking.

Next time, take high detailed pictures of both sides of the circuit board so we can see everything n one view. We can look at section after section and see the continuity.

One or two pictures of each side of the entire board is better than a few pictures of different sections. Paul's pictures are well lit and clearly show an overheated drive chip.

Sometimes, bouncing between different posts will get people confused as they try to figure out what is now and what is history.


pictures to follow in a couple of hours.
my bedroom lighting is not the best. and the phone is unable to focus much. but theres some decent sung light outside right now...
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Re: RH pod not working

Postby Tuga2112 » Sun 07.10.2018, 14:15

this is the best i can do with my phone.

some pictures have outside light, some have a close source of light. and theres combinations with and without flash from the phone camera.

part of the dificulty i have is the fact the phone camera tends to focus on the relay, which is a lot closer to the lens than everything else.

all pictures were resised to 640x480 pixels in order to fit in the thread for most people without needing to fiddle around with the browser.
the originals are of a much higher resolution (4600x3450). which im not sure may be of use or not?


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Re: RH pod not working

Postby Brit-Car-Nut » Sun 07.10.2018, 15:34

Why are the circled connections different? Did one overheat and stretch or what?

www.lotusm100.com/Module1.jpg

I would suggest looking at all the connections associated with the curved connector. Look at the relay closely to see if the contacts are burned for that connection.

Can someone please fix the forum problems with attachments and pictures? PLEASE?
ALSO the lack of notifications too...

BTW, I downloaded all of the pictures and then brightened them up and increased the contrast followed by resizing them as big as I could so I could actually see. Too bad we can't see the circuit board where the curved connection attaches under or behind the relay.

I agree with RAMBO. Use the module from your other car to verify the module is even the cause.
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Re: RH pod not working

Postby Tuga2112 » Sun 07.10.2018, 20:20

Brit-Car-Nut wrote:I agree with RAMBO. Use the module from your other car to verify the module is even the cause.


John,
if you look further back, i reply to Rambo explaining i had done that already

before swapping the units. i did bridge the purple connector and ground that are inputs of the module with the green and grey outputs of the module for the faulty motor. which then started working just fine.
i did not post publicly, neither here the youtube video because in the video i tell the viewer to "short the purple and black wires" instead of "directly connecting the purple to green and black to grey"
what i say would blow up a fuse, where that i did in the video switched on the motor and proved the circuit was running fine when you exclude the control unit from the flow

before swapping the units i was already sure my diagnosis was correct. the reason i swapped the units was not to complete the diagnostic, but mostly to maintain the car in good running condition.

new pictures now. without making the image smaller.
im just gigvin direct links to them because in full size they will screw up the forum display.
http://i67.tinypic.com/2w5w29g.jpg
http://i64.tinypic.com/2w720dy.jpg
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Re: RH pod not working

Postby Brit-Car-Nut » Sun 07.10.2018, 20:56

DID YOU SWAP THE CONTROLLERS?

If you did and the lights work correctly, then the controller is bad. Simple. Replace the bad one.

If you just forced a different power or ground/earth to test the motors, then you still don't know what the problem is.

Some days, you just have to replace parts. Keeping a car like the M100 safely on the road is a challenge and because the parts are very expensive, it can be a financial disaster.

Always pushing for the absolute inexpensive repair requires a huge amount of work finding a source of the RIGHT parts and often skills in a lot of different professions.

I respect trying to get the car fixed for little money, but you are trying to learn how to test, analyze, source and make the repair with very little background in the various processes.

In my 50+ years of car ownership and eventual running of several dealer repair centers and finally my own company, I have spent an enormous amount of time repairing work owners attempted so they could save money only to end up with a bill that was more than the original cost to repair.

Honestly, you can't fix everything without a significant amount of experience in the systems and logic required to make the repair correctly. I applaud your efforts, but sometimes, you just need to replace the defective part.
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Re: RH pod not working

Postby Tuga2112 » Sun 07.10.2018, 23:25

John, i know this is already said in the email reply earlier today, so, just making it public so we dont continue the discussion and people reading can still folow
Brit-Car-Nut wrote:DID YOU SWAP THE CONTROLLERS?

Yes, the yellow elan is running fine now, but the blue elan is without a controller.

Brit-Car-Nut wrote:If you did and the lights work correctly, then the controller is bad. Simple. Replace the bad one.

I understand the idea, and i will be using that as a last resourse, i would like to attempt a refurbishment first.

Brit-Car-Nut wrote:If you just forced a different power or ground/earth to test the motors, then you still don't know what the problem is.

the power-earth combination i used is the exact same that the unit would redirect to the motors i used the purple wires, because according to the wiring diagram, those are the ones fused at 15amps on top of the instrument cluster.

Brit-Car-Nut wrote:Some days, you just have to replace parts. Keeping a car like the M100 safely on the road is a challenge and because the parts are very expensive, it can be a financial disaster.
Always pushing for the absolute inexpensive repair requires a huge amount of work finding a source of the RIGHT parts and often skills in a lot of different professions.
I respect trying to get the car fixed for little money, but you are trying to learn how to test, analyze, source and make the repair with very little background in the various processes.
In my 50+ years of car ownership and eventual running of several dealer repair centers and finally my own company, I have spent an enormous amount of time repairing work owners attempted so they could save money only to end up with a bill that was more than the original cost to repair.


i understand that very well, although i dont have your experience, i have found myself in a particularly awkard position more than onse in the past because in the UK, so called "professional auto electricians" dont do their job properly when fitting aftermarket alarms. so far, i have spent 4 weeks of head scratching between 2 cars, and dissassembled complete interiors because some cross wiring was done for no justifiable reason
the difference being mostly the fact that im not charging anyone to fix my mistakes, and i end up fixing other people's mistakes instead

Brit-Car-Nut wrote:Honestly, you can't fix everything without a significant amount of experience in the systems and logic required to make the repair correctly. I applaud your efforts, but sometimes, you just need to replace the defective part.

Im aware of that.. in fact, that was what happened with the oil cooler, there's 2 things i dont know at the moment i want to learn, one being welding skills, and second being electronics.
Electronics is a topic i have been interested in for a few years. this may be the kick in the backside i need to actually start spending the money on the tools and time on research.
as things stand, the yellow car is running 100%, so i dont need to rush into any decision at the moment.
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Re: RH pod not working

Postby Brit-Car-Nut » Mon 08.10.2018, 00:13

Brit-Car-Nut wrote:If you just forced a different power or ground/earth to test the motors, then you still don't know what the problem is.

Tuga2112 wrote:the power-earth combination i used is the exact same that the unit would redirect to the motors i used the purple wires, because according to the wiring diagram, those are the ones fused at 15amps on top of the instrument cluster.


Joao: (and anyone else trying to understand the car's electrical system)
The power feed for the headlamp motors is neither conventional or normal.
The module supplies power in one direction or the other (up or down). However, the design is for the module to recognize when the motor is up or down by "watching" the current as the motor rotates and cutting the voltage when the current rises as the motor stalls against the pellets inside the motors.

If you just put 12V to the motor connections, you can easily run the motor past the pellets and break the gear or destroy the pellets adding a motor rebuild to your list of tasks.

Just for additional information, the door window motors work in a similar fashion except the door motor relays control the motors based on the current draw instead of a specific module. This is how the windows know enough to stop when fully up or down.
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Re: RH pod not working

Postby dapinky » Mon 08.10.2018, 12:14

Tuga2112 wrote:.... in my opinion, if SJS can refurbish them.. i dont see how i cant... its just a matter of learning enought about the subject untill im capable of diagnosing the system.



Can't fall out with this - I also can't see Steve doing it himself, so there must be people out there who are easily capable of fixing these things on his behalf....

.... pity Smiffy is off to Spain for the winter... maybe he needs a project whilst he's drinking sangria at the poolside.... :poke:
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Re: RH pod not working

Postby GeoffSmith » Mon 08.10.2018, 14:22

John's warning about powering the motor directly from a battery supply is correct - the primary function of the module is to cut the power when the current increases as the motor stalls. As long as you are very quick however, you should be able to prove that the motor is driving the headlight up and down (I'd start from halfway up so you don't damage the gears if you get the direction wrong) but first off I would put a voltmeter across the motor connections to see if power is being sourced from the module. If not it's probably worth twatting† the relay.

I think the kinked wire is mechanical though. This is what happens when the module burns out:

Image

From what I found out a few years ago, they are susceptible to damage - probably voltage spikes from bad +12V and 0V connections. Seeing as they use 4000 series logic (which is notoriously prone to damage to transient of little more than 18V and there appears to be no transient protection on the module supply inputs) I am not surprised.

† Technical engineering term for applying a shock to an item sufficient to fix a mechanical problem without breaking said item.

PS if anyone wants to lend me a left hooker for the Winter, I can probably take a look. :-D
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Re: RH pod not working

Postby Tuga2112 » Mon 08.10.2018, 21:22

John.

i understand your consern, i was aware of the way the module worked before testing, i did read the electrical manual and studied the wiring diagram.
to me, it was pretty obvious that the control module had to do some kind of resistance or current detection on its own in order to stop the motors, because theres no switches at the edges of the travel distance as well as the fact the wiring to the motors is exclusively 2 wires (which you can easily guess the functioning principles as a +12 and 0 to spin the motor in one direction and vice-versa to spin in the oposite direction.)
i probably should have made it clear i was aware of the way the system works instead of jumping ahead and explaining "what i done" while ommiting all the research done before jumping into action.
i now realise for other owners who would have a basic understanding of the electrics of the car, my previous posts may give an impression that the system is not fragile and lead them to inadvertely damage their cars.

Geoff.
i was planning on setting up a test rig to confirm if the relay is working this weekend. assuming its possible the relay is stuck. that could be confirmed easily. replacing it does not appear to be a bg challenge, although my skills at removing soldered connections still lack, i do have all the tools required.
when you say it uses 4000 series logic, (which i have just googled) i assume your refering to the 4011 IC with ST written on it. is that correct ?
do you know what is the other IC ? i tried to find datasheets for it without any luck.
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Re: RH pod not working

Postby GeoffSmith » Mon 08.10.2018, 21:37

Tuga2112 wrote:when you say it uses 4000 series logic, (which i have just googled) i assume your refering to the 4001 IC with ST written on it. is that correct ?
do you know what is the other IC ? i tried to find datasheets for it without any luck.

Correct - the 4001 is a quad 2 input NOR.

16511949 is probably a GM part number and therefore a custom device that you are unlikely to find anywhere other than in a GM headlight module. Date code appears to be 8931 so manufactured in 1989.
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Re: RH pod not working

Postby Tuga2112 » Tue 09.10.2018, 20:30

GeoffSmith wrote:Correct - the 4001 is a quad 2 input NOR.

you probably quoted me before i edited my post. (and possibly made it wrong?)
the IC i found when googling for the data printed was a quad 2 input NAND (which according to my further googling is a 4011)
i need to do some further googling to learn how to test the IC, i have a suspicion of a process that could work, but given the fragility of the parts i will be googling further on the topic before doing anything else.
GeoffSmith wrote:16511949 is probably a GM part number and therefore a custom device that you are unlikely to find anywhere other than in a GM headlight module. Date code appears to be 8931 so manufactured in 1989.


the only other reference i found of this IC was on the corvette forum https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c5 ... d-why.html where they suggested the same

upon close inspection i found a cracked solder joint. which was rectified but proved to not be the culprit of the failure.

GeoffSmith wrote:PS if anyone wants to lend me a left hooker for the Winter, I can probably take a look. :-D

not sure if your asking for a bribe, or a spare unit... (blame it on the language barrier)
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Re: RH pod not working

Postby GeoffSmith » Tue 09.10.2018, 22:51

Tuga2112 wrote:
GeoffSmith wrote:Correct - the 4001 is a quad 2 input NOR.

you probably quoted me before i edited my post. (and possibly made it wrong?)
the IC i found when googling for the data printed was a quad 2 input NAND (which according to my further googling is a 4011)
i need to do some further googling to learn how to test the IC, i have a suspicion of a process that could work, but given the fragility of the parts i will be googling further on the topic before doing anything else.

You can see that it is a 4001 in the photos above and is a quad NOR (both inputs low for a high output, otherwise low output). The 4011 is not fitted and is a quad NAND (both inputs high for a low output, otherwise high output). They are/were standard logic building blocks. In the loft I have an 8 bit 8085 micro with video card of my own design/build which uses a lot of similar devices.

Tuga2112 wrote:
GeoffSmith wrote:16511949 is probably a GM part number and therefore a custom device that you are unlikely to find anywhere other than in a GM headlight module. Date code appears to be 8931 so manufactured in 1989.


the only other reference i found of this IC was on the corvette forum https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c5 ... d-why.html where they suggested the same

upon close inspection i found a cracked solder joint. which was rectified but proved to not be the culprit of the failure.

Yup… but FastOne is talking bollocks if he thinks that a bit of heatsink will save his MOSFETs. If you've got bad solder joints then it would be worth checking all of them with a magnifying glass.

Tuga2112 wrote:
GeoffSmith wrote:PS if anyone wants to lend me a left hooker for the Winter, I can probably take a look. :-D

not sure if your asking for a bribe, or a spare unit... (blame it on the language barrier)

Left hooker = LHD.
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