Has anyone ever..................

[Elanlover]

Accessed the nut on the starter motor without removing all kinds of parts themselves? I am installing remote battery charging terminals in the engine bay and need to attach the positive cable to the starter motor. I've had a look under the car and it seems (as usual) pretty hard to gain access to it so one option is taking the car in which I'd prefer not to do if I can avoid the extra cost. If its possible to do (as in someone has done it themselves and can advise on the best way to access it) then I'll attempt the procedure myself. Thanks!

[Elanlover]

Also, has anyone ever seen the starter motor/alternator/binding post cable in real life? Ideally, I'd like to replace this with a 0 or 2 gauge cable but it looks a bit complicated from the parts diagram. In that diagram it appears that this cable may be a single "forked" cable with a split that has one run leading from the starter to the alternator and the other run from the starter to the binding post behind the fascia. Yet, the diagram also shows that at the starter motor, the cable may have two separate lugs - so is it one cable or 2 simply taped together or something? The other thing that concerns me is the diagram shows a strange contraption of some sorts at the alternator termination point. Is that a diode perhaps? If so, I may not want to replace this cable (or this part of it).

Any help would be appreciated.

[Brit-Car-Nut]

Here are some BIG pictures:

[Elanlover]

Thanks John, great pics by the way. Not giving me a good feeling when I see what looks like burnt casing on the starter end of one of those cables.

So, based on your pics one can assume that this cable doesn't look anything like the diagram in the parts manual. Why am I not surprised. I take it then that its simply straight cable, no "mystery lump" hiding a diode like the parts manual shows, with typical connectors on the ends. I will PM you with some extra questions but one of my questions still remains unanswered.



Has anyone accessed the starter motor stud or alternator stud (to reach the nut that keeps the cables secured) from under the car? If so, how?

[GeoffSmith]

I take it then that its simply straight cable, no "mystery lump" hiding a diode like the parts manual shows...

What diode?
http://wikilec.9600.org/images/7/79/MJ2 ... nition.gif

EDIT: Or are you mistaking the alternator stud cap in John's fourth picture and shown retracted back down the cable to reveal the clamping nut and washer in the parts manual?

[Brit-Car-Nut]

I don't think it was electrical heat that caused the darkening although the insulation has shrunk at the eyelet.

I didn't see any diode around the alternator end but someone might have added a supression capacitor if they were getting noise in their sound system.

The end hiding in the boot is a regular eyelet just like the one at the other end. Remember, wire sizes in the UK are different than US. Their stranded wire has a lot more strands than most US cables I have worked with so can handle higher loads for the same outer diameter.

I will get you some numbers.

Looking at the write-up for starter replacement, the distructions start with removing the prongeron. I know it has to come off to get the started out and in, but might be the easiest way to reach the bolts and connections. The picture of the cavity show it after the starter was removed, so I don't know if it installs solenoid up or down.

Geoff: The link to the Wiki is not working

[Brit-Car-Nut]

Dug out the cable again and wiped the soot off the starter end. It was grease and soot. No suggestion the wires got hot after they were crimped

The large wire is stranded but a bit over .25 inches which suggests #2 and the small wire is also stranded but could be #6. Stranded gauge is not the same since they calculate the equivalent cross sectional copper area which means each strand is calculated and then added together. I think that would make it closer to #1 or #0 and # 5 or #4 for the small wire. The strands are really thin, so a lot of them to add together.

Found another chart that shows 196/0.4 as a metric size and it is equivalent to maybe a 3ga?

I found the cable from the UK car but it was hacked off at the starter eyelet. Since it was out of the plastic sleeve, it revealed there is a fabric jacket around the two wires inside the plastac jacket. Pulling a new wire into the existing sleeve might be more difficult than expected.

[Elanlover]

I take it then that its simply straight cable, no "mystery lump" hiding a diode like the parts manual shows...

What diode?
http://wikilec.9600.org/images/7/79/MJ2 ... nition.gif

EDIT: Or are you mistaking the alternator stud cap in John's fourth picture and shown retracted back down the cable to reveal the clamping nut and washer in the parts manual?

Well, here's where all the confusion comes from.

If you look at the diagram in the parts manual (17.31A) it clearly has some form of "lump" in the cable end at the alternator. Having never seen one before I had no idea what it was and wondered if it might be a diode or something. Having now seen the cable John posted pics about its clear its the rubber boot But, just for the record, there's plenty more confusion to be had about this cable.

In the same diagram it seems to indicate that the alternator cable runs to the binding post behind the fascia. Yet, the diagram on page 19 (page 15 too) of the electrical manual shows the "starter motor" cable attached to the binding post, not the "alternator" cable. But, the diagram on page 36 shows the alternator end of the cable to have the 2 ends (instead of the starter end of the cable). What we now know if that the starter end of the cable has the two connections not the alternator end. Also, that the alternator end doesn't run to the binding post at all but to the starter (the start has a run to the binding post). So, you'll see why I was a bit cautious on this one.

[Elanlover]

I don't think it was electrical heat that caused the darkening although the insulation has shrunk at the eyelet.

I didn't see any diode around the alternator end but someone might have added a supression capacitor if they were getting noise in their sound system.

The end hiding in the boot is a regular eyelet just like the one at the other end. Remember, wire sizes in the UK are different than US. Their stranded wire has a lot more strands than most US cables I have worked with so can handle higher loads for the same outer diameter.

I will get you some numbers.

Looking at the write-up for starter replacement, the distructions start with removing the prongeron. I know it has to come off to get the started out and in, but might be the easiest way to reach the bolts and connections. The picture of the cavity show it after the starter was removed, so I don't know if it installs solenoid up or down.

I think we're all in agreement that the "lump" in the parts diagram is simply the rubber boot. I also read the steps to remove the starter motor which didn't get me excited at all as I'm not prepared to remove that in my garage. I have slipped under the car and can see the starter motor stud from underneath. I just don't know if its actually accessible with some form of wrench, etc. - I'd be prepared to buy a special wrench for a hundred bucks (cheaper than the shop doing it), even if for a single use, if I know it would do the job.

Dug out the cable again and wiped the soot off the starter end. It was grease and soot. No suggestion the wires got hot after they were crimped

The large wire is stranded but a bit over .25 inches which suggests #2 and the small wire is also stranded but could be #6. Stranded gauge is not the same since they calculate the equivalent cross sectional copper area which means each strand is calculated and then added together. I think that would make it closer to #1 or #0 and # 5 or #4 for the small wire. The strands are really thin, so a lot of them to add together.

Found another chart that shows 196/0.4 as a metric size and it is equivalent to maybe a 3ga?

I found the cable from the UK car but it was hacked off at the starter eyelet. Since it was out of the plastic sleeve, it revealed there is a fabric jacket around the two wires inside the plastic jacket. Pulling a new wire into the existing sleeve might be more difficult than expected.

When you are taking the diameter measurements of the wires is that with the jacket on or the bare wire? I've used the awg gauge charts before and a .25" diameter would indicate #2 but I've always (possibly incorrectly) that this is bare wire diameter, not jacketed, as wires for different purposes (auto, home, marine) all have different jacket types with some thicker than others. If this was bare wire then it may not need to be replaced at all which would be great. I'm guessing the cable run from the starter to the binding post can't be more than 3' and, with an uprated alternator pushing out 165 amps, 2 gauge is more than sufficient. However, the alternator to starter wire, if it truly is only 6 gauge, could be a problem. Even if the run is only a few feet it may be pushing things a bit.

Here's the question I can't answer that would be helpful to know (directed at all those electrical engineer types - like Geoff )

We have an electrical system that has 3 wires in it (4 if you count the binding post to maxi fuse box wire). The battery to binding post wire looks to be about 6 feet long. The binding post to the starter may be 3 feet and the starter to the alternator perhaps 2 feet. So, when you're calculating the correct wire gauge to use for 150 amps (without starting a fire) what do you consider? Do you consider the length of each wire individually or do you look at the entire run of cable involved (upwards of 11 feet) since current has to flow right back to the battery? OR, as some have suggested from the web research I've done, do you need to also consider the -ve run length as well as its a complete circuit? Each of these three options results in very different cable gauges.

[Brit-Car-Nut]

I don't know if you can reach the nut without major disassembly. Hopefully, someone who has done the task will step up and give a review.

The wire diameters are all the BARE wire without the jacket. The main wire is just over .25" using a reliable caliper the jacket makes it .391". The small (alternator) wire is .141 bare and .227 with jacket.

If you need it, I can measure each length as I think you are a bit optimistic. I believe the connection eyelets need to be considered in your calculations since none of those in the starter/alternator bundle were soldered - they are all just crimped.

The engine to chassis cable needs to be considered. I assume it is braided so very flexible. What is it's effective current capacity. Can you get a heavier braid with decent eyelets to either replace or supplement the stock one?

Also, the jacket material needs to be analyzed as regular vinyl is not happy with high currents and I have never seen a teflon (THHN/THWN) battery cable. Maybe just adding a safety conduit would help?

If this is to add the power posts to the engine bay why not join the power cables at the +ve post behind the dash? That would keep the connection away from the elements and easier for you to add internal connections and modifications. It would mean a bit more cable length and a decent gromet, but in the end, a better solution - nothing hanging off the engine (that rocks and rotates) that could be damaged by the continual bending and flexing. You can get cables and grommets from http://www.AutoSparks.com that will resolve anything you are worried about. They will even make a custom wire for you that is neatly crimped and soldered with proper strain relief and heat-shrunk ends. They have a huge assortment of fuse and relay boxes as well as anything else you might need to wire or re-wire a car.

Is it possible the firewall has a hole for a RHD clutch cable as well as the LHD one being used? That would be a decent sized hole. Maybe finding the location would give you a guide to where to drill if it isn't already drilled and plugged.

[Elanlover]

I don't know if you can reach the nut without major disassembly. Hopefully, someone who has done the task will step up and give a review.

The wire diameters are all the BARE wire without the jacket. The main wire is just over .25" using a reliable caliper the jacket makes it .391". The small (alternator) wire is .141 bare and .227 with jacket.

If you need it, I can measure each length as I think you are a bit optimistic. I believe the connection eyelets need to be considered in your calculations since none of those in the starter/alternator bundle were soldered - they are all just crimped.

The engine to chassis cable needs to be considered. I assume it is braided so very flexible. What is it's effective current capacity. Can you get a heavier brade with decent eyelets to either replace or supplement the stock one?

Also, the jacket material needs to be analyzed as regular vinyl is not happy with high currents and I have never seen a teflon (THHN/THWN) battery cable. Maybe just adding a safety conduit would help?

Why are these questions being posed? To go to a heavier load starter or heavier output alternator? Certainly (hopefully) not to support some audio amplifiers! The last thing we need is another noisy car in the parking lot.

I can see the starter motor stud and its on a bit of an odd angle. An angled wrench might get to it as I almost had a wrench on it but had the wrong tools for the job. The diameter of .141 is a bit of an odd one but could put it around a 9 gauge? Strange. Three feet at 150 amps is just at the limit which make me nervous. The alternator I'm looking at will put out up to 165 amps I believe but I'll never draw anything close to that. I calculate a max of 125 amps and that's with every possible electrical gadget in the car on which isn't going to happen.

And of course its for a big bad stereo amp. Its not like I used the trunk for anything Might be a few other little additions in there too though.

[Brit-Car-Nut]

Re-read my edited reply. The feed from the +ve post to the starter is longer than 3 feet, so ...

I would go with PLAN "B" and run a heavier gauge wire from the alternator to the starter but that might require removing the clam and possibly removing the engine.

Not much room available to design and fabricate solutions when the car is assembled.

[Elanlover]

Re-read my edited reply. The feed from the +ve post to the starter is longer than 3 feet, so ...

I would go with PLAN "B" and run a heavier gauge wire from the alternator to the starter but that might require removing the clam and possibly removing the engine.

Not much room available to design and fabricate solutions when the car is assembled.

If you're saying that the cable from the starter to the binding post is 2 gauge then it can be 10 feet for all I care. 2 gauge is more than sufficient. Its the alternator to starter motor cable I'm concerned about. I'm guessing that one's 2 or 3 feet and if its truly 9 gauge then we may have a problem.

[Brit-Car-Nut]

the small wire is also stranded but could be #6

The small wire is crushed in the crimp, so I did the best I could measuring and subtracting the eyelet thickness. If it was a solid conductor, then #7 is most likely the right gauge. It is Stranded, so the gauge gets better. Probably a sound #6 but even possibly a #5. It IS noticably smaller in diameter than the main feed (as would be expected).

Even a #4 is only safe for 95A (#6 - 75A; #8 - 55A) and that is with a decent insulation jacket. I am concerned you won't be able to find decent eyelets rated for 100+ amps that are small enough and have a small enough hole to make the studded connections. How realistic is the charging capacity of the alternator in question? 165A charging requires a HUGE alternator. Efficiency has improved in recent years, but I think you are being misled by what can be done with an alternator that fits in the space. The largest up-rated alternator I found for the GEO that would fit the space we have was 85A although I see listings for 105 and 120 amp units but they are HUGE and require different brackets and a LOT of room.

[GeoffSmith]

http://wikilec.9600.org/images/7/79/MJ2 ... nition.gif

Geoff: The link to the Wiki is not working

It's working for me at home and I'm sure if I tried at work, it would most likely work there too.

Anyone else having problems with the link?

[dapinky]

it works for me!

[epipete]

Me too!

[Brit-Car-Nut]

http://wikilec.9600.org/images/7/79/MJ25-02_Starter%2C_Alternator_%26_Ignition.gif

Geoff: The link to the Wiki is not working

It's working for me at home and I'm sure if I tried at work, it would most likely work there too.

Anyone else having problems with the link?

I just get a white screen with a border and a red X in the upper left corner. I drilled to the actual wiki folder and get a file not found error. Maybe virus protection against GIFs.

[Elanlover]

I see it no problems too. But to the point at hand............

The small wire is crushed in the crimp, so I did the best I could measuring and subtracting the eyelet thickness. If it was a solid conductor, then #7 is most likely the right gauge. It is Stranded, so the gauge gets better. Probably a sound #6 but even possibly a #5. It IS noticably smaller in diameter than the main feed (as would be expected).

Even a #4 is only safe for 95A (#6 - 75A; #8 - 55A) and that is with a decent insulation jacket. I am concerned you won't be able to find decent eyelets rated for 100+ amps that are small enough and have a small enough hole to make the studded connections. How realistic is the charging capacity of the alternator in question? 165A charging requires a HUGE alternator. Efficiency has improved in recent years, but I think you are being misled by what can be done with an alternator that fits in the space. The largest up-rated alternator I found for the GEO that would fit the space we have was 85A although I see listings for 105 and 120 amp units but they are HUGE and require different brackets and a LOT of room.

I've done a LOT of research into uprated alternators in the spring I believe (there's a thread somewhere in the forum on it) and found these guys to be as good as it gets unless you want to go custom. They claim the package is identical to stock but likely with better staters and wiring. Its rated at up to 170 amps but I think a lower amp version is also available. I'd only likely need 120 - 130 tops at max draw. The uprated 75 amp alt I have in now is pretty good but I figured its not a bad idea to look at a better alt if I'm going to be wiring in remote battery charging posts.

I think a #4 gauge is good to 20' at 150 amps/12v according to the charts I've read. But, in the engine bay that distance should go down a bit. A #8 gauge is good for 10 feet but I believe all these numbers are inclusive of the grounding distance so half of these numbers is a good bet.

[GeoffSmith]

Blair, these figures are usually based on a given voltage drop across the cable.

Now V = I × R i.e. it's directly related to resistance so you could get away with e.g. 10' of #4 in series with 5' of #8 or 2 off 20' of #8 in parallel - why not add a parallel cable from starter to alternator? Also resistance increases with temperature so inside a hot engine bay will need some compensation. The resistance at the connections also add a significant resistance. The chassis is not copper but has a lot greater csa so may be less important if the bonding between sections is good.

PS I've used the data on Wikipedia for AWG in the past and found it's reliable: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awg

PPS Don't forget to disconnect the battery before trying to disconnect the starter.

PPPS Your ears are still going to bleed if you manage to get your amp to draw 185A continuous!