Do you need a pre-cat on an S2 ?

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Do you need a pre-cat on an S2 ?

Postby simonbuk » Tue 18.10.2016, 11:44

Have seen that Piper do a pre-cat eliminator for the Elan.

Is this going to have any effect on an S2 emissions come MOT time ?

I assume not as they must have tested it ?

Has anybody fitted this and had any problems ?
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Re: Do you need a pre-cat on an S2 ?

Postby simonbuk » Tue 18.10.2016, 11:47

Plus it says 'Plus £263 with sports cat' - what does this mean ? If you have the full Piper system have you got a sports cat or is it just a normal cat ?

EDIT: ok having phoned up Piper, the website means that when you buy the pre-cat eliminator you HAVE to buy the sports cat which is within the pre-cat. Therefore its never going to be £152 , its always going to be £415 !!

Likewise if you buy the pre-cat for the 2 1/2 inch system its £180 plus £56 so £236.

I thought that when it was mentioning 'sports cat' or'silencer' it was meaning in the inline exhaust system. It was a confusing phone call with the guy from Piper for a while !!
Last edited by simonbuk on Tue 18.10.2016, 16:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do you need a pre-cat on an S2 ?

Postby GeoffSmith » Tue 18.10.2016, 14:54

It is only likely to be an issue if it was registered after 31st July 1995.
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Re: Do you need a pre-cat on an S2 ?

Postby Brit-Car-Nut » Tue 18.10.2016, 17:36

Simon:

Starting at the exhaust output flange at the Turbo, S2 cars, USA FED cars and I believe Japanese cars should all have a pre-catalytic converter, a short front connecting pipe, a long, in-line "full" catalytic converter, more piping and then the rear muffler.

Item # 7 is the Pre-Cat, item 21 is the "full" cat and item 30 is the rear muffler. Items 26 and 27 are part of a harmonic dissipation system that reduces the vibration in the exhaust which should make the ride more comfortable and help keep the innards of the cat from breaking up. The Japanese cars also have a temperature sensor in the "full" cat that warns if the converter is overheating.

I thought the "aftermarket" systems - like Piper - supplied a NON cat system for all models (based on the SE) and unless your car falls into the post July 1, 1995 ruling, the emissions test was weak enough that only one cat was needed to meet the requirements.

Only some US States require a 1991 car to be tested for emissions so cars from those that don't usually end up without their cats.

California is crazy in that you need to provide acceptable proof that anything you change in the fuel and exhaust systems still meet the emission requirements. They won't just test the exhaust, they look at part numbers and manufacturers and require statements from said manufacturers certifying that their replacement parts meet the necessary standards. Even RC Injectors are questioned and often rejected which makes it really hard to keep the car legal.

S2-Exh.jpg


I hope that clarifies things.
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Re: Do you need a pre-cat on an S2 ?

Postby lotusflasherman » Tue 18.10.2016, 18:33

GeoffSmith wrote:It is only likely to be an issue if it was registered after 31st July 1995.


I don't think that's quite right Geoff.

18th Edition of Emmissions Book (2014) says ...

1.1 Types of test
The emissions test to which a vehicle is subject will depend upon its date of first use (i.e. date of registration or date of manufacture if used abroad before first registration in the UK) as follows:
 For vehicles first used before 1 August 1975 a visual test will be applied.
 For vehicles first used on or after 1 August 1975 a metered test will be applied.

On 1 January 1996 a new test was introduced for petrol fuelled passenger cars fitted with advanced emissions control systems such as three way catalytic converters.
The test was extended to include large petrol fuelled passenger cars and petrol fuelled light goods vehicles from 1 August 1997.
The test applies to:

Passenger cars first used on or after 1 August 1992 and mentioned in the Annex to this publication.
 All passenger cars first used on or after 1 August 1995.

Unfortunately for S2 owners it's in the Annex on page 76 :
LOTUS
Esprit
Type 082 Esprit SE from VIN No SCC082910KHD65000 Engine Type 910, Engine VIN Code 910 0.5 1080 900 0.3 200 0.95 1.09 2600 80 2400
Type 082 Esprit S4 from VIN No SCC082910NHF60006 Engine Type 910, Engine VIN Code 910 0.5 1080 900 0.3 200 0.95 1.09 2600 80 2400
Type 082 Esprit Sport 300 from VIN No SCC082910PHA68004 Engine Type 910, Engine VIN Code 910 0.5 1080 900 0.3 200 0.95 1.09 2600 80 2400
Type 082 Esprit S4s from VIN No SCC082910SHA64001 Engine Type 910, Engine VIN Code 910 0.5 1080 900 0.3 200 0.95 1.09 2600 80 2400
Type 082 Esprit S4, GT3 from VIN No SCC082920THA42100 Engine Type 920, Engine VIN Code 920 0.5 1080 900 0.3 200 0.95 1.09 2600 80 2400
Type 082 Esprit V8, V8GT, Sport 350 from VIN No SCC082918THF15011 Engine Type 918, Engine VIN Code 918 0.5 1080 800 0.3 200 0.95 1.09 2600 80 2400
Elan
Type 100 Elan S2 from VIN No SCC100ZT1RHA26001 Engine Type ZT1, Engine VIN Code ZT1 0.5 1000 800 0.3 200 0.95 1.09 2600 80 2400
Elise
Type 111 Elise from VIN No SCC111YN1THA10017 Engine Type 18K4F, Engine VIN Code YN1 0.5 1000 800 0.3 200 0.95 1.09 3000 80 2500
Type 111 Elise from VIN No SCCGA1110XHC30017 Engine Type 18K4F, Engine VIN Code G 0.5 1000 800 0.3 200 0.95 1.09 3000 80 2500
Type 111S Elise from VIN No SCCJA1110XHC33591 Engine Type 18K4K, Engine VIN Code J 0.5 1000 800 0.3 200 0.95 1.09 3000 80 2500
Type 111 340R from VIN No SCCGA1110YHC60004 Engine Type 18K4F, Engine VIN Code G 0.5 1350 1150 0.3 200 0.95 1.09 3000 80 2500
Type 111 Sport 160 from VIN No SCCKA1110YHC30651 Engine Type 18K4F, Engine VIN Code K 0.5 1500 1100 0.3 200 0.95 1.09 3000 80 2500


So it's 1st August 92 that's the significant date and my December 1993 SE is often a problem - I have to point out it's not in the Annex like the S2. Doesn't help that Lotus didn't put SE on the boot either so VIN frequently gets checked.
Last edited by lotusflasherman on Tue 18.10.2016, 18:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do you need a pre-cat on an S2 ?

Postby HJ2 » Tue 18.10.2016, 18:39

Good info from John (as usual :D )

I believe that the pre-cat is located just behind the engine so it heats up quickly, as the catalyst needs a certain minimum temperature to work optimal. The main cat works later since it is further downstream and takes more time to heat up.
That said: When the engine is hot and the main cat is hot... Who needs a pre-cat? :-D I removed mine (emptied the matrix inside the stock housing) and did not have any problems with exhaust gas testing. Even better: I met the 0.5% CO regulation without any cat :cheers:
It depends from country to country how and what they check at the MOT though :roll:
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Re: Do you need a pre-cat on an S2 ?

Postby Simon_P » Tue 18.10.2016, 19:21

Piper make an excellent system which was developed to be modular to suit all versions. The sports cat is the main cat.


GeoffSmith wrote:It is only likely to be an issue if it was registered after 31st July 1995.

Unfortunately I dont think that is correct Geoff.

The test is all vehicles first used after 1st July 1995 and: "Passenger cars first used on or after 1 August 1992 and mentioned in the Annex"

The S2 is listed in the Annex
"Elan
Type 100 Elan S2 from VIN No SCC100ZT1RHA26001 Engine Type ZT1, Engine VIN Code ZT1" So your scam in the other thread shouldn't work because there is an exact match in the emissions book and because the engine code is part of the VIN.

so all S2's must meet the same standard.

Beaten to it again!
Last edited by Simon_P on Tue 18.10.2016, 19:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do you need a pre-cat on an S2 ?

Postby GeoffSmith » Tue 18.10.2016, 19:25

lotusflasherman wrote:
GeoffSmith wrote:It is only likely to be an issue if it was registered after 31st July 1995.


I don't think that's quite right Geoff.

I think it is Phil... but there again, so are you!
There is no denying that the S2 is listed in the Annex so they must follow the flow given in the second link on the first page (post #80). If they cannot confirm that the engine is type ZT1 then it is a non-cat test limits. :cheers:
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Re: Do you need a pre-cat on an S2 ?

Postby GeoffSmith » Tue 18.10.2016, 19:27

Simon_P wrote:Piper make an excellent system which was developed to be modular to suit all versions. The sports cat is the main cat.


GeoffSmith wrote:It is only likely to be an issue if it was registered after 31st July 1995.

Unfortunately I dont think that is correct Geoff.

The test is all vehicles first used after 1st July 1995 and: "Passenger cars first used on or after 1 August 1992 and mentioned in the Annex"

The S2 is listed in the Annex
"Elan
Type 100 Elan S2 from VIN No SCC100ZT1RHA26001 Engine Type ZT1, Engine VIN Code ZT1" So your scam in the other thread shouldn't work because there is an exact match in the emissions book and because the engine code is part of the VIN.

so all S2's must meet the same standard.

Beaten to it again!


But the tester can't rely in the VIN (as the engine may have been changed) so needs to confirm the engine type from the engine...
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Re: Do you need a pre-cat on an S2 ?

Postby Simon_P » Tue 18.10.2016, 19:33

sorry editing while you were writing Geoff.

No you dont get to the second page because there is an exact match on the first page. You only get to your ZT1 question by answering no to the exact match.

4. Exact match in Emissions book? No. Yes! if you answer Yes which you should "Elan Type 100 S2" then it knows which standard to use. if it has been changed it is for you to prove its age.

Edit- From the MOT Manual
"Note: The onus is on the vehicle presenter to prove engine age. "
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Re: Do you need a pre-cat on an S2 ?

Postby GeoffSmith » Tue 18.10.2016, 19:52

Simon_P wrote:The S2 is listed in the Annex
"Elan Type 100 Elan S2 from VIN No SCC100ZT1RHA26001 Engine Type ZT1, Engine VIN Code ZT1"

Because the annex lists the engine VIN code, the tester needs to confirm this from the engine for it to be an exact match.
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Re: Do you need a pre-cat on an S2 ?

Postby Simon_P » Tue 18.10.2016, 20:17

Hi Geoff,

GeoffSmith wrote:Because the annex lists the engine VIN code, the tester needs to confirm this from the engine for it to be an exact match.
And they can do that because the Vin code contains the engine no - it is for you to prove otherwise.

I think the match question is for model number in the test ie Elan S2. 1994 - .....and mine is an Elan S2 so i didn't argue.

The nice tester man just told me my S2 with both cat's fitted didn't pass and could I take it round the block to ensure it was hot... which did the trick. Besides if it doesn't pass the test there is something wrong with it so why try to beat the system?
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Re: Do you need a pre-cat on an S2 ?

Postby GeoffSmith » Tue 18.10.2016, 20:37

Simon, mine hasn't had a cat since before I bought it in 2006. The only time there was an issue was a couple of years ago when the workshop manager had to do the test as the MoT guy was off sick. He tested it as an exact match and it failed. We went through the procedure together and he said that he had made an error because the annex quotes an engine VIN so he needed to confirm that from the engine. He couldn't find it. It passed again.
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Re: Do you need a pre-cat on an S2 ?

Postby Simon_P » Tue 18.10.2016, 21:28

Well of course it is going to pass if it goes through a pre 92 non cat test!

Down here we have to pass the test for the S2!
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Re: Do you need a pre-cat on an S2 ?

Postby MPx » Wed 19.10.2016, 08:31

I have the Piper 2.25 system with PCE and Sports cat. When I bought it you could certainly have the Sports cat without the PCE (and that's what most people did, but not me!). I fitted it myself - the PCE is just a open ended small bucket - nothing in it, the Sports cat is further back. The car has never passed an MOT easily since. Mine was first registered in Jersey on 12/07/1995. Unfortunately when I brought it back to the UK in 2003 the DVLA didn't like that and put on our V5 as first registered on 01/05/2003 (don't know how/why they chose that date but it would be good going for an S2!). They also put a note stating "Was registered and/or first used declared manufactured in 1995" whatever that means. I say that because I don't know if that makes it better or worse for MOT testing. However, what I've found is that you need someone to hang another cat on the back of the exhaust to get it through...or find some other means... which is a right PITA. There was a thread on here some years back about the MOT testing references and I took that along a couple of times to different places to try to argue the case, but on both occasions I failed to engage the interest of the tester and was effectively told where to go. The S2 is on their database as a specific model with different criteria to the SE. I've since combined the MOT with a service and left the servicing garage to get it through by whatever means.

However, for all that pain, the car now breaths properly, sounds great and goes much much better!
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Re: Do you need a pre-cat on an S2 ?

Postby simonbuk » Wed 19.10.2016, 08:48

MPx wrote:I have the Piper 2.25 system with PCE and Sports cat. When I bought it you could certainly have the Sports cat without the PCE (and that's what most people did, but not me!). I fitted it myself - the PCE is just a open ended small bucket - nothing in it, the Sports cat is further back.


This is how I understood it to be !!

But the guy at Piper completely confused me to the point of making me look and feel stupid so I ended the conversation.

If you look at the website page it says under 'Available options' - Sports Cat at an extra 265 quid. When you try and order the pre cat only it adds on the sports cat automatically.

http://www.piperexhausts.co.uk/pipersto ... uqekaih270

Now I have a Piper 2 1/4 system already on the car which has a cat already built into the system (whether its a sports cat I'm unsure).

So the guys asking me why I want another cat in the car - I answer I don't but your website is forcing me to buy one, I want to buy the pre-cat pipe only.

'You can't ' - he says, you need a cat as well.

I gave up totally confused !!

Thanks for the other responses BTW.
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Re: Do you need a pre-cat on an S2 ?

Postby Simon_P » Wed 19.10.2016, 10:08

The Piper exhaust system was developed in conjunction with LEC in what was probably the group buy of all time. from memory there were 6 options - 2xbore, cat, silencer or neither. Even the right type of tail pipe was discussed. The result is excellent!

The PCE was developed later again in conjunction with LEC.

There appears to be something wrong with Piper's ordering system. If the car was a UK S/E there's no need for a Cat. There may be a technical reason why you need a sports cat for an S2 or other cat equipped car. The sales rep should have explained this, if they had they then could have ascertained that a you already have a. Piper system and b. it already has a sports cat.....so as you said you don't need one.

I'd try again and see if you get someone who understands that you don't need a sports cat. Perhaps PM the Piper account on here and ask them to read this thread.

Piper only offered a sports cat so if it is a Cat it is a sports cat.
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Re: Do you need a pre-cat on an S2 ?

Postby chipp » Wed 19.10.2016, 17:04

I don't think Piper monitor the thread on here anymore.
I phoned them direct for clarification on the website order form.
I kept the pre-cat and removed the main cat on a 2.25" system, what an improvement that has been.
Mot was no problem either.

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