Puff!!! loads of vapor and yellow engine light

[Tuga2112]

So my little project is in a state that can/could hit the road.

I took the car to parents place (coventry) and decided to fix the exaust (pipe had a hole) with my Dad's help, so did the usuall bracelet fix with gum-gum
start the car to heat up for the gum-gum to get harder and seal the hole in the exaust.

around 30 minutes later just before i was going to switch off the car i notice in the dashboard the yellow engine light is on. 2 seconds later theres a puff and vapor everywhere from the engine, I switched off the engine and let the vapor spitting calm down before started to look at things.

took a look and i had no coolant at all. I have tried to check the oil for any water mixed, it doesnt appear to have happened (had an MGF before, the head gasket was my biggest fear), I have replaced the coolant with tap water half hour later and started the car again, to see if 1- it would start 2- if there was a leak or something obviously wrong that even i can identify.

I have identified theres a leak in a pipe (not 100% which) in the back somewhere between the engine and the coolant reservoir. the car is making an odd sound near the engine area when it first starts but later on the sound disappeared. and theres vapor comming out of the radiator, (the vapor from the radiator i think it may be just vapor from the initial burst that happened to liquify in that area because it was very little).

Im thinking of getting some insulation tape to fix the leak and drive the car back to stafford. (assuming after 10 minutes running theres nothing obviosuly wrong happening.)

As you guys already know im not very good with technical lingo around the car, but im trying my best here to explain the situation.
any suggestions to what happened, what can i do to fix it, what does it sound like happened?

Cheers.

[Steve A]

Where do I start

I'm assuming your car has a working temperature gauge if your car lost it's coolant and it got hot the fans would come on, which is around about the time you should have been thinking "my car is now hot enough to start the cooling fans, I'll just wait and see if they actually cool the car and turn off" the alternative to this is the car gets so hot it starts to self destruct
This sounds like what your problem is
If your really really lucky after filling your coolant back up (and bleeding the system as you'll probably have an air lock) it just might be ok but I serially have my doubts

Insolation tape will not help with a coolant leak as the system is pressurised

[epipete]

Steve A is right about the possibility of self destruct (and many here seem to have suffered HGF for various reasons) nevertheless I think you may have been lucky here!

1. When did you last check the coolant level? Have you any reason to suspect that your coolant level was not right before you journeyed yesterday?

2. You need to determine where you lost the water from, Radiator, Heater Matrix, Coolant Hoses, Coolant Tank, Tank Pressure Valve, heater valve. Once you have determined 'from where' come back here and tell us as we can suggest where to go for replacements.

3. If the steam is, as you suggest, from between the engine and the coolant tank then the 2 pipes in this region that I'd suspect are those that supply the Heather Matrix (these can be located exiting the rear bulk head) feel along them, on one of them you will find the heater valve (this is also a common fail point). There are other pipes here but check the heater pipes first. When refilling the coolant remember there is a drain for bleeding under the Nr Side light pod

image.jpg

4. When you have determined the cause of the water loss and fixed that, you will need to check the fans, the sensor is on the thermostat housing - earthing the wires should start the fans; proving the fans work doesn't mean the sensor is good or that the thermostat is working (the latter is a cheap fix though).

Let us know what you find

Pete

[Tuga2112]

Steve, Pete.
Thanks for the quick reply guys.
For a start, I didnt pay attentnion to the temperature, and the vans never switched on. i left the car in iddle while working aroudn the car in trying to fix some paint failures, the only thing i noticed was the engine light as i was about to switch the car of (seconds before the puff).

Refering the possibility of self destruct. i know at least the car started afterwards when i put water in. it gained some temperature and then it colled down a bit (im assuming thats a good sign)
I checked the coolant level about 2 weeks ago same time as the car was painted, the collant was topped up, not till the max but there was a confurtable amount of it.
I will take pictures of the place where the leak is and point that so you can tell me how to proceed from there
its interesting as you show the heater valve as when the steam was coming out i think it was coming out of there. at least from the pic it resembles the suspect area that i looked at, again ill take picture to confirm

Illl have some pictures before lunch time hopefully.

[Tuga2112]

heres a video on youtube of the leak i can see.
youtu.be/8NA2PDV1Mb8
tohards the end theres anotehr hose that i signalled because its the one that seemed to be where the vapor was coming from yesterday.

afraid this is all i can think of for the moment.

[dapinky]

A couple of thoughts here,

When you re-filled the coolant 2 weeks ago did you bleed the radiator?

If not, then there would have been air trapped in the system, and when the engine is running, it stays in the radiator, but when it is switched off, it can migrate to whatever highest point it can find - this is often the thermostat housing.

Once there is air in that location, it will affect the 3 semsors located there (for dash guage, ECU and fan switch) - all to varying degrees due to their specific location.

What happens is that one may well be seeing the correct 'water temperature' but another may be in air, not coolant, so doesn't see the same temperature.

As such, the ECU may be working fine, and the dash guage, but the switch for the fans thinks it's not so hot - so they don't switch on!

Or alternatively, if the ECU doesn't get the correct temperature reading, it may give the yelow dash light.

This will be compounded by the leak (which may have been caused by the excess pressure as the system got hot and expanded/pressurised) as there is even less coolant for the sensors to be immersed in.

With a major coolant loss, none of the sensors are in water, and all sorts of readings can occurr, which can point to different issues.

What I would do is to fill it up with water (not antifreeze unless you have loads of money to chuck down the gutter!), making sure the heater valve is open (set heater to hot) when you fill it - otherwise there is a risk of an airlock in the heater matrix.

Then run the engine for a SHORT time, just to circulate water and dislodge the major air bubbles.

Top it up to the correct level, but all the time, watching for leaks (do not fit the coolant reservoir cap at this point - it will only pressurise the system, which we don't yet want to do).

Lift the NS headlamp pod by turning the knob on the motor, then you will see the radiator bleed screw - be gentle with it - they are plastic (as original equipment) and so aren't tight - they're sealed with an O ring - they can get a bit brittle with age. The plug doesn't need to be extracted, just undone a turn or 2 to let the air out. You may need the engine to be running to get it all out, and once there are no more bubbles coming out with the dribble of water, it's done/

Go back to the heater pipes and check that they are both (flow and return) at the same temperature - this will tell you if the valve is open or not - if it's warm on the engine side of the valve, but not the bulkhead side, then it isn't open and there is a fault either with the valve or the vacuum which operates it (we can help you with how to trace that once the leakage is sorted!).

If you can't find any obvious leak, then it indicates that it only occurrs under pressure (if you can, let us know which pipe, and where it is ) - so put the cap back on and let the pressure build up by running the engine until you can find the leak.

Obviously, if the temperature gets too high, or any warning lights come on, turn it off straight away.

I would expect the leak to make itself known fairly quickly if it's a knackered component (pipe, casting, valve etc) - but if it's just a loose jubilee clip, it may take a while and only be apparent under high pressure.

[Fredjohn]

As a secondary check, in addition to dapinky's write-up above, I would double check the fans are working by by-passing all the switches. Think Pete mentioned it above.
That way you will know that once the water system is sorted, the fans should come on via the stat once heated up. If they don't you will know that the fan stat is faulty.

See you Thursday either with a sorted car or in a cloud of steam! ......No pressure then!!!!

[HJ2]

Based on your short movie my guess is still with the heater valve. This should be easy to check!
For the rest:

[dapinky]

If it is the heater valve, then as a temporary fix you can just remove the valve and substitute a piece of suitable pipe (3/4" plumbing pipe will do if you have any lying around in the garage).

Don't buy a new one without posting your requirements, I may know of a spare one lying around in my conservatory

Likewise if it's anything else - always worth asking on here first - many of us have odd pipes etc lying around from when the whole hose system was replaced with Samco sets - Lotus prices for individual pipes can be horrendous - and quite often, the 'damage' can be repaired with odds and ends which are cheaply available - standard hose diameters, and a variety of fittings are cheap enough on ebay and similar, once we know whats needed, i'm sure there will be offers of help.

Further to my earlier post, don't forget, once you're happy with the integrity of the whole system, then drain it down (remove bottom radiator hose and let the water out!) then fill with the correct antifreeze mix.....

....if you don't have any to hand, and the weather looks like it's going to turn, then drain the water out and leave it empty until you can get some.

[GeoffSmith]

Sounds like classic heater valve explosion (mine did it at the gates of Hethel) and the warning light is probably due to steam/water on the coilpacks, but just in case it wasn't make sure you read the CEL code.

[RayD]

...

[Tuga2112]

sorry for the delay in the reply.

I gambled the trip back home on the car as it was cold and i had enough water to run through.
I managed to get back home without any issues. (divided the trip in 2 stages to let the engine cool and never went over 2k rpm )

so what i can say about the car is that it is driving just like before, but the temperature gauge never does higher than the first stage which makes me worry there is air in the system (i did the whole trip with hot feet and hands as i remember from the MGF letting the hot air out into the inside of the car helped cooling the car)
I did bleed the radiator after filling up with water.

I had to mess around with the oil as my dad decided the car needed oil.. (turns out he overfilled with 20-40W oil and i had to get some oil out. to keep it at a reasonable level.
which bring me to one of the questions stated.

After the trip i checked the water level. it turns out very little or none water was lost in the trip. (strangely the leak i have recorded in the youtube video doesnt seem to leak anymore)
Im going to use the paperclip trick to find out the CEL code and feedback here.

Dave

Then run the engine for a SHORT time, just to circulate water and dislodge the major air bubbles.

define short ? i did that for about 5 minute run, is that long enough ?

I would expect the leak to make itself known fairly quickly if it's a knackered component (pipe, casting, valve etc) - but if it's just a loose jubilee clip, it may take a while and only be apparent under high pressure.

It seems i need to put the system under pressure to find the leak. any ideas how long it needs to be iddle for that ?

Likewise if it's anything else - always worth asking on here first - many of us have odd pipes etc lying around from when the whole hose system was replaced with Samco sets - Lotus prices for individual pipes can be horrendous - and quite often, the 'damage' can be repaired with odds and ends which are cheaply available - standard hose diameters, and a variety of fittings are cheap enough on ebay and similar, once we know whats needed, i'm sure there will be offers of help.

i intend to do so. as soon as i figure out what is wrong. which is not as easy as i hoped for

rayD

ill take a closer look into that. im shocked i didnt notice the rust before its probably the source of the leak

I have never noticed the fans of the radiator working, i dont even have a clue how to access them. taking off the front bumper wont help, it seems...

1 - what is the grade of oil i should use to change the oil now ? (i saw here that aparently theres no real values defined ?)
2 - apart from the radiator is there any other place where i need to bleed the collant system ? im sure theres something wrong at the moment because the gauge didnt go further than the first stage
3 - im thinking of printing the "Elan-M100-Service-Manual-v6" is this a good investment of my money or im better of with google ?

[dapinky]

Hi,

Firstly, 5 minutes should be more than enough to dislodge trapped air, and if the radiator is bled during that time, it should be fine.

Secondly, to pressurise the system, ideally I'd just let it idle with the coolant cap on until the fans cut in (should be about 10-15 minutes, as a guess) - pressure is directly proportional to the temperature - the fans will come on when the temperature gets to about 110C (3/4 on the guage) - it can only get to this temperature without boiling if it is under pressure in the system.

Think about what would happen if you released the cap with it at temperatures above 100C - water would boil as it drops to atmospheric pressure, and expand - sending steam everywhere.

As soon as the engine is idling, the level in the tank should rise a bit due to expansion - if it is a 'sealed system' then the pressure can/will increase, but if the cap is loostened, or there is a leak, then the pressure will escape and the temperature won't get much over 100C, so the fans won't cut in.

You can check that pressure is maintained in the system by loostening the cap (slowly, and bit at a time - with an old towel over the top to protect yourself from escaping steam) whilst the engine has been idling for a few minutes - there should be a bit of a hiss (escaping pressure) and the coolant level will increase in the tank.

If there is no such hiss, then pressure is getting out somewhere, either from a leak in the system, or in the seal between the cap and the tank.

There is nowhere else to bleed other than the radiator.

The pipe that Ray refers to could be swapped for something like one of these (but in the right diameter and length), if that is your problem.

Oil is a real lottery, and everyone has their own opinion on it - basically, it depends on the engine milage/condition and use.

I run on semi-synthetic 15W40 as I found the 10w30 to be too thin for an engine of higher mileage. As long as it is kept to the correct level, and changed regularly, the extra cost of syntheric isn't worth it to me (but if you want to do higher milages between changes, it may well be woth using).

As for the manuals, the Workshop manual is only 16.6KB as a .pdf file, so it can even be stored on your mobile phone if you want to - I have got a printed version, but never use it.

[epipete]

sorry for the delay in the reply.

I gambled the trip back home on the car as it was cold and i had enough water to run through.
I managed to get back home without any issues. (divided the trip in 2 stages to let the engine cool and never went over 2k rpm )

so what i can say about the car is that it is driving just like before, but the temperature gauge never does higher than the first stage which makes me worry there is air in the system (i did the whole trip with hot feet and hands as i remember from the MGF letting the hot air out into the inside of the car helped cooling the car)
I did bleed the radiator after filling up with water.

If the car is moving then the temp will not move above the first (qtr) marking, the coolant is being chilled as it goes through the radiator, remember it is being pumped around by the engine. If you stop at lights etc then it should soon start to rise upto the 3/4 mark at which point the fans should cut in to force air through the radiator and hence reduce the temp.

I have never noticed the fans of the radiator working, i dont even have a clue how to access them. taking off the front bumper wont help, it seems...

Just for info here is a pic of the radiator, fans etc.

image.jpg

there is a process for removing them but you need to test that they work first, as mentioned above you can earth the radiator plug (it is the one in the Thermostat housing) just pull it out and press the terminals against an earth point. Failing that, now you've driven home and the coolant level appears sound, switch on the engine and SIT in the drivers seat until the temp goes up to JUST beyond the 3/4 point the fans should switch on and the temp gauge should lower, you may now go and listen to them running in the engine bay but it doesn't matter because you will have proved they work. If they don't come on and the temp continues to raise switch the ignition off and leave it all to cool down. Be careful and don't risk your engine!

1 - what is the grade of oil i should use to change the oil now?

Trial and error but search on here there are loads of threads on the subject

2 - apart from the radiator is there any other place where I need to bleed the coolant system? I'm sure there's something wrong at the moment because the gauge didn't go further than the first stage.

If you were moving the temp gauge is about right, it will raise only when you are stationary (see above)

3 - im thinking of printing the "Elan-M100-Service-Manual-v6" is this a good investment of my money or im better of with google ?

Request access to the manuals (see the green 'manuals' on the gray bar above) , failing that Zi have a disk with them all on which I can copy for you.

Pete

[Tuga2112]

Had a look at the car again.

ran it idle for around 20 to 25 minutes before the leak made itself appear.

heres a youtube video which basically shows nothing was aparent to be wrong sometime betwen 15 to 20 minutes after i started the car.
youtube link

the thermostat is working (gone over the first quarter) which im very happy to confirm
the leak is the same pipe as i have seen before. which is poined in this picture.



so what is the name of this 3 way hose ?
anyone have one that is wanting to depart of for a good price ?
the location seems tricky to replace it. is it as hard as it looks or even harder ?

tomorow im gonna find out how to earth the fans. and maybe (if i feel brave) will let the car heat up enough to confirm if the fans switch on or not.

[dapinky]

I don't have my car here at the moment (it's gone for painting!), so have nowt to refer to (other than pictures!)....

....I assume it is item part number #TB1829 (Samco part number) - which would equate to a Lotus # B100K0029F

samcoredhoses.jpg

Elan M100 Parts Guide v6.jpg

If that is the case, I'm not sure if I still have one in the garage or not - I know I gave one of mine to Blacknight a few years ago when his started to leak, but I may still have the other one (I replaced both cars with Samco). I'll not be able to look until tomorrow.

SJ sportscars list it at £6.63 + VAT and delivery, but show it as fitting a NA, not the SE?????

The parts book shows the piece as a longer hose, not the shorter (connected) one which your photo seems to show - different part number (obviously!) of B100K0026F, which SJs don't list, but it is on the aftersales list (so available from any Lotus dealer) for £6.80.

From memory, mine had the shorter bit, as per the pictures (and that is the part which Samco supply) memory isn't great - I fitted it years ago - and as I say, I don't have the car here to look at.

I'll have to have a look to see what I've got

[epipete]

Hi, there are a couple of useful threads (for Engineers and insomniacs alike):

Jeemy's Elan rebuild: viewtopic.php?f=79&t=20848&hilit=Jeemy#p264598. (Check out page 6 & 7

And

Cliff's Zill - A Rolling Project: viewtopic.php?f=79&t=19040#p246153

Lots of good pics of work on the coolant system

Also here is a picture of the pipes in schematic

(Bugger me, ever time I type something on this thread Dave pips me to it! )

[dapinky]

(Bugger me, ever time I type something on this thread Dave pips me to it! )

Ah, you may be okay for a couple of weeks, starting Friday - I had a phone call today offering me a fortnights work in UAE

[epipete]

Need someone to carry your bags?

[Tuga2112]

thanks for the quick reply guys.

I had a look into this samco hoses you refered. the set is currently 260 quid from this website with a bit of browsing i found one at 240

on a off topic question
is it easy to fit in these set and is it worth the investment ? (probably not for now but i may want to do that work next year when my bank account is stable)

and thanks for the info epipete. im sure it will come in handy when im working on the car, i rather have too much information than not enough.

i think the hose that i need is indeed the #TB1829 im glad to know the price is under a tener.
Dave,
let me know if you have one lyieing around or not when you find out (hopefully before thursday ? )

im probably gonna take the car to work tomorow and the day after just to see how it behaves refering loss of collant and temperature management. i feel more confident the issue is not as bad as i initially tought now. unless you guys think its a bad idea.