Crankshaft Pulley Bolt Removal

[GeoffSmith]

And my tool is up for rent

Rent boy!

[John_W]

One point to note - the holes in the pully are threaded. I thought M6 but I'm doubting myself as mine was 1 year ago and JW's last week
I used an impact socket as these are a tad stronger. Best to use one that drives of either the flats or a full hex - you don't want that bolt rounded off!

And my tool is up for rent
Any proceeds to the LEC fund

Dave,
You're right - M6 , my mistake. Original post now corrected.

The Halfrauds Professional socket I bought to replace my 30-year old Elora/Hilka/Draper/whatever it was does drive the flats.

The Halfrauds impact sockets are the black ones - noticeably greater wall thickness and full hex. I didn't buy that one 'cos I wasn't sure it would fit in the available space. The standard shiny Professional 17mm worked fine to undo the bolt and to tighten it again to 150 lb-ft.

The plate I used came from B&Q for 98p and required 15 mins work with a hacksaw, a file, a centre-punch and a drill. (I made a pattern on a sheet of paper, like doing a brass rubbing but with oily and rusty bits of engine.) I don't mean to deprive Geoff of any immoral earnings from the rental of your tool, but for 98p it's cheaper to make a bracket than pay for the postage.

John

[dapinky]

The Halfrauds impact sockets are the black ones - noticeably thicker and full hex. I didn't buy that one 'cos I wasn't sure it would fit in the available space.

In order of above:-

They are, they certainly are, they drive the flats. I did (full set), they do!

[Oliver]

Well much to my amazement, the huge compressor didn`t budge the bolt. (I have apologised to my compressor for the abuse i hurled at it)

On to plan two, involving the wife, and a three foot long breaker bar !!


Oliver

[M100 TWO]

Oliver do you have access to a 3/4 or an inch impact wrench they should do the job 1/2 some times don't have the drive you need
diff

[RayD]

...use a really long 1/2" breaker bar… a 2 foot long tube on the end of my socket extension… both hands for the breaker bar…lots of bars and plenty of leverage …a scaffold bar for leverage…putting my breaker bar against the floor… on brakes and a very long breaker bar…with a length of scaffold tube on the breaker bar…5th gear engaged and a large breaker bar…and an extremely long lever handle…and a three foot long breaker bar… I used a 5 foot scaffold bar for leverage on the breaker bar… but with a 6 foot scaffold bar for leverage on the breaker bar…

I don’t know how to put this…

Considering I’ve never removed an M100 crankshaft pulley bolt, and only recently been introduced to the phrase “breaker bar” perhaps I should say nothing at all…

On the other hand…

Imagine setting the various extension bars, “breaker bar” and seven foot of scaffold pole up, and having a light-footed trapeze artist walk gingerly to the end of the pole. It’s not hard to see how it might support their weight. Its only when they start jumping up and down things start to happen. (Like the clutch disintegrating with leaving the car in gear)

It won’t be solved by adding more length… a 12 foot pole soon sorted it out!!

Its not because it’s tight – it’s because it’s stuck.

If you took it off the same afternoon it was put it on, it would come off smoothly, a mirror image of it going on.

The extra problem comes from the underside of the head, and part of the bolt rusted to the pulley. It could just as easily be overcome by tightening it with an 18 foot pole instead of slackening it. Once it was ‘cracked’ you’d be back to normal.

It needs impact to break the seal.

Soak with penetrating oil a few days previous.

Hit the bolt head with a hand hammer – cut an old socket down so it locates on the head without reaching the pulley, long extension bar, 2lb hammer.

Use a short spanner and a lump hammer to slacken the bolt off.

Air impact wrenches are doing both these things at once - breaking the seal and turning the bolt at the same time.

I don’t mean to detract from some of the good points made, particularly the ones referring to stopping the crank from turning with a bolted plate.

But, as Monty and others have said…. The best bet is to drive to a garage and ask them to get it off with an impact wrench.

Now where will I get one of those breaker bars

[dapinky]

Firstly, let me say that in an ideal world i MIGHT agree with the above.

However, we live in a far from ideal world.

As both Oliver & I found, even a blooming great compressor doesn't always work!

My air impact wrench has a massive amount of torque (it's not made by Fisher-Price) and my compressor has sufficient free flow output to drive it) but it didn't work.

As such, the out-of-context 'method' you have denegrated above (in red italics) was what worked for me, and others on here.

By the time you get to the stage where you realise that the bolt won't shift, it is usually far to late to consider re-building the car to get it to a garage to try a bigger hammer!

A such, it is a system, WHICH IS FAR FROM IDEAL, but does work.

I like the theory of hitting the bolt head to free-off the rust, but there isn't a lot of room to swing a hammer, and i personally, wouldn't want to put that much longitudinal shock onto the crankshaft, which is (AFAIK) cast iron. (open to be shot down on that one).

All in all, the whole write-up is just a collection of thought process and mistakes made by people who are now passing on their collective ideas for anyone else to contemplate.

I think, ideally, when read in context, the general advise is to try getting the nut off first (at home, or a local garage) by impact wrench, or using moments of inertia and leverage.

I don't think any of us would advocate a stupidly long bar as the way to do it, but we all use what we have availlable, and what we can think of to try next!

[RayD]

Dave,

I’m trying to be helpful – the exaggerated lengths of pole are to inject a bit of humour, and tone down my otherwise serious point.

Any effect knocking the end of the crankshaft will be nothing compared to strain applied by a 6 foot scaffold pole with the car in gear.

A smaller hammer would work just as well - you’ll notice I said a ‘hand hammer’ for the bolt end, and a lump hammer for the turning. Mine happens to be 2lb.

As for it being a theory, it will have been used a million times.

For those unfamiliar with it - we are talking about a small bolt.

The crankshaft won’t be made of cast iron.

Ray

Edit: PS...

All in all, the whole write-up is just a collection of thought process and mistakes made by people who are now passing on their collective ideas for anyone else to contemplate.

Dave, if this line is referring to my post, what does it mean? "collection of thought process" ...I’m not guessing what might work. And "mistakes made by people"... all the people I’ve quoted didn't consider they were making a mistake - I'm not taking the piss out of anyone. I’m trying to get a point over in such a way as it will be memorable and helpful.

Ray

[dapinky]

The crankshaft won’t be made of cast iron.

Ray

Edit: PS...

All in all, the whole write-up is just a collection of thought process and mistakes made by people who are now passing on their collective ideas for anyone else to contemplate.

Dave, if this line is referring to my post, what does it mean? "collection of thought process" ...I’m not guessing what might work. And "mistakes made by people"... all the people I’ve quoted didn't consider they were making a mistake - I'm not taking the piss out of anyone. I’m trying to get a point over in such a way as it will be memorable and helpful.

Ray

According to page EC3 of the workshop manual:-

"...The five bearing cast iron crankshaft is tuftrided for wear resistance...."

The "mistakes" referred to were a general description of things i have done, and spoken to other people about - we all accept that there are better ways and worse ways of achieving the objectives - these were different approaches to the same problem.

Again, all I can say is that the method quoted DID work (whilst not being the most sympathetic to the rest of the drive chain), and is the method used by others (LGM for example).

I am not an engineer by trade, (my doctorate is in Theology ) and don't recall all of the Metallurgy/material science lectures i went to many years ago, but I am a reasonably practical 'home mechanic' and can often find a way round various difficulties with the contents of my domestic garage!

If you tell me you ain't taking the pi$$, I'll believe you, but it appeared to be a total denegration of my attempts to help other people, with a personal attack on my agricultural methods.

Rant over.......




PS

Has anyone got a second-hand 'Sence of humour'.......(part number F-U-TOO-DAP!)

...I appear to have lost mine

[GeoffSmith]

Jesus! Are you two on the rag?

[dapinky]

Jesus! Are you two on the rag?

I'm just trying to get enough pointless posts to get a higher ranking in the 'New Order'

[mrsdapinky]

Play nicely David !!!

[muley]

[scousevoice] Calm down! calm down![/scousevoice]

Anyway, I've used both methods to undo tight bolts - I've got a crappy old T-bar that I +tap+ with a club hammer. That said, for the crank I'd prolly use leverage against a JW-style crank pulley holder.

Bye for now


Jim

[RayD]

Sorry Dave, I can now see how you could take it the wrong way.

The 13 quotes in red came from about eleven different people on eleven different posts on three different threads. Yours only appeared last because it added to the numerical theme/joke. (And you thought they were all yours!)

If I thought just you had made a mistake, I wouldn’t have been putting it on the website – I would have sent you a PM - if I thought it would be helpful.

It just shows how precarious things are when “interwebbing”

Why, all of a sudden, do you think I’d be likely to “totally denigrate your attempts to help other people, or make a personal attack on your methods” What’s all that about?

Cast iron – Mmm - Good job I don’t back horses!

Ray

[Oliver]

Good discussion guys,

The breaker bar hasn`t worked so far. The clutch holds, but the brake discs rotate even with the brake pedal hard down. I`m asking my local Lotus dealer if they wouldn`t mind `cracking` the bolt for me and doing it back up to a lesser torque so i can creep back home. In the meantime, i`m going to try the breaker bar again. Is 5th gear best ? And i presume it`s a conventional thread ?

Oliver

[RayD]

Oliver,

It is a conventional thread – it comes off anti-clockwise, the way to remember is to visualise people using a starting handle on old cars - they were 'tightening' the bolt at the same time.

As for the best gear – that would be neutral.

Ray

[DeeAitch]

As for the best gear – that would be neutral.

Ray

It scares me when I think of the stress you might put through the gearbox.
Yes, I know a few folk have had success with this method, but why risk it? There are a few examples of an easy to make locking device which remove all doubts.

[valimar]

Hi Oliver,
I can imagine what a problem you have! I had the same a few years ago! I asked for help but nobody at the forum could solve my problem! I bought a compressor, experiment with an air impact wrench and a lot things more... Then I found a way to do it that works perfect! I made a tool from a square hollow steel pipe and 3 precise holes to immobilize the crank pulley. I had the intention to make some pictures of it but lack of time prevent me to do it till now. It's a bit difficult to explain how it works but if you didn't solve the problem yet just let me know and I'll try to place some photo's of the tool.
Cheers, rodrigo

[muley]

As for the best gear – that would be neutral.

Ray

It scares me when I think of the stress you might put through the gearbox.
Yes, I know a few folk have had success with this method, but why risk it? There are a few examples of an easy to make locking device which remove all doubts.

Jim

[RayD]

I'd prolly use leverage

The breaker bar hasn't worked so far...i'm going to try the breaker bar again.

i personally, wouldn't want to put that much longitudinal shock onto the crankshaft

Another well received tip!

The only three people who have expressed an opinion have chosen to go with the idea of leverage.

I’m probably not explaining it very well…

It doesn’t need excessive leverage to undo a bolt that’s been tightened to 123lbf.ft. It needs about 124lbf.ft, the sort of thing you can do with one hand on an ordinary ring spanner.

The problem with the crankshaft pulley bolt after 16 years is the underside of the head is stuck to the washer, which in turn is stuck to the pulley just as surely as if it had been welded.

An accepted method of overcoming it is to use impact. In the absence of an impact wrench, if you hit it long enough, and sharp enough, you would finish up with a gap under the bolt head, the washer would be loose and you would be able to remove the bolt by hand. This concept would never happen in real life but it should get the point over.

Using regular amounts of penetrating oil, and tapping it with a toffee hammer over a long period of time would have a similar effect.

It should be more important now Dave has pointed out the crankshaft is made from cast iron. The one thing cast iron is not very good at is being twisted.

Ray