Urgent advise needed - smoke galore

[PECKHS]

Use one of these compression testers...(or something similar)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/DRAPER-PETROL-ENG ... 5883fb32da

remove spark plugs

disconnect LT to the coils

fit this in one hole and crank engine (turn engine over for about three revolutions)

TTFN

er specky, we do have the compression tester. tks anyway.

found this -

How To Do The Test
Run the engine until it reaches normal operating temperature. Tests done on a cold engine usually show lower readings. Remove the HT leads and take out all the spark plugs. The ignition system MUST then be disabled. If this isn't done it will continue to generate high tension voltages into the HT leads which will have nowhere to go with the plugs out. These high voltages will find another route to earth and can damage the ignition system or even the car's ECU. Unplug the low tension connections to the coil or to the distributor. If you aren't sure how to disable the ignition system on your own car then check with a dealer before you start. It is also good practise to unplug the fuel injectors or disable the fuel pump, especially on cars fitted with a catalytic convertor. This prevents unburned fuel getting into the exhaust system during the test.

Screw the gauge into cylinder 1 and rest it somewhere you can see the dial while you crank the engine. Open the throttle fully either by pressing the accelerator or wedging the linkage open under the bonnet. If the throttle isn't open then air can't get into the cylinder and the readings will be far too low. Crank the engine until the gauge stops rising and count the revolutions while you do so. It should normally take no more than 10 engine revolutions (5 compression cycles) to get a full reading. You can count the cycles by watching the gauge too - each jump of the needle is one compression stroke. Write down the final reading and also make a mental note of how quickly the gauge rose on the first few cycles. Then just repeat for the other cylinders. Make sure that each cylinder reaches its highest reading after the same number of engine revolutions. If all readings are good then the test can end there. If any cylinders are low then a "wet" test can be done. This involves squirting a few ccs of oil into the cylinder and repeating the test. The oil will help seal bad rings and increase the reading but won't affect it if the problem lies in the valves or head gasket. Copyright David Baker and Puma Race Engines

so i assume the engine is not started then. we just crank the engione and see the psi? correct me if i'm wrong
tks

[Specky]

yep that's it,

I edited my post as you were writing...

a quick 5 minute job and you should have your answers...

TTFN

[PECKHS]

yep that's it,

I edited my post as you were writing...

a quick 5 minute job and you should have your answers...

TTFN

thank you very much specky

learned something new today!

i will redo the test again tomorrow, maybe followed by a leak down test too

thank you again and good night from singapore

cheers

[Specky]

Nite...

TTFN

[esprit888]

My money is still on the head gasket

here's how bad it is

http://s132.photobucket.com/albums/q20/ ... I_2278.mp4

[bobbrown]

If the compression check proves to be OK and a block check shows no sign of leakage I would put my money on the turbo.

[esprit888]

If the compression check proves to be OK and a block check shows no sign of leakage I would put my money on the turbo.

This would have been my first guess too (possibly cracked housing or seal failure?) but reading the initial post he stated 'the turbo pipes and such are dry, no traces of oil.' So if the turbo piping is dry i ruled that out. Also it sounds like one cylinder is running fine as he mentioned three are oiled up??

[PECKHS]

did the compression test again, this time with the plugs removed and ignition isolated.
the pressure ranged from 120-125psi, which is within the spec of 8.X...this is not with full throttle as i had difficulty removing the injectors
the workshop did not have the equipment to do a leak down test
we do have the equipmement to pump compressed air into the cylinders, but how do we check whether it is leaking and where it's leaking without the proper equipment?

i will start dismantling the engine next week. crossing my fingers that we can find and rectify the problem..

good luck to me

one other thing, i can't find the CO pot!!! it's not behind the glove box. can someone enlighten me pls...

tks

[esprit888]

You don't need to remove the injectors to do a comp test, only unplug the wires, even then its not a 'must do', its more to stop fuel entering by mistake but if you have pulled the pump fuse then you can leave them connected. All four plugs should be removed and the reason for holding the throttle body valve open is to ensure the cylinder you are testing is able to draw in maximum air for the compression reading.

did the compression test again, this time with the plugs removed and ignition isolated.
the pressure ranged from 120-125psi, which is within the spec of 8.X...this is not with full throttle as i had difficulty removing the injectors
the workshop did not have the equipment to do a leak down test
we do have the equipmement to pump compressed air into the cylinders, but how do we check whether it is leaking and where it's leaking without the proper equipment?

i will start dismantling the engine next week. crossing my fingers that we can find and rectify the problem..

good luck to me

one other thing, i can't find the CO pot!!! it's not behind the glove box. can someone enlighten me pls...

tks

[bobbrown]

Now I am wondering if the “wet” on the pistons is fuel so are you sure its oil on the pistons?

If the readings on the compression test are consistent across all 4 cylinders then I would be inclined to say that the rings are NOT the issue but it would be better to get readings with the throttle open as readings with it closed are inconsistent.
As for leak down testing here's some information on what is required Link and I would have thought you were half way there when you did the valve seals with compressed air. If the cylinder that was being worked on had bad rings then I would have thought you would have had some difficulty in maintaining the pressure in that cylinder.

In a nut shell a leak down test is just a case a measuring the pressure down stream from a known supply pressure after it had passed through a small 1mm diameter orifice. If the input is 100 psi and the reading downstream of the orifice is 95 psi then you have 5% leakage which is acceptable.
You should be able to hear if air is leaking in excessive amounts from either the inlet manifold (inlet valves), the exhaust (exhuast valves), the breather (rings of could be a blown head gasket into an oil way/drain.), or the coolant header tank (head gasket), if you brim the latter then air should be seen bubbling up through the coolant if you have a head gasket problem.

I would exhaust (no pun intended) all the tests possible before I pulled the engine out as you could save yourself a lot of time, effort and money if this turns out to be some thing other than rings or head gasket.

Bob

[PECKHS]

the compression test seems to indicate a consistent value across all 4, although they are a little low.

Now I am wondering if the “wet” on the pistons is fuel so are you sure its oil on the pistons?

If the readings on the compression test are consistent across all 4 cylinders then I would be inclined to say that the rings are NOT the issue but it would be better to get readings with the throttle open as readings with it closed are inconsistent.
As for leak down testing here's some information on what is required Link and I would have thought you were half way there when you did the valve seals with compressed air. If the cylinder that was being worked on had bad rings then I would have thought you would have had some difficulty in maintaining the pressure in that cylinder.

In a nut shell a leak down test is just a case a measuring the pressure down stream from a known supply pressure after it had passed through a small 1mm diameter orifice. If the input is 100 psi and the reading downstream of the orifice is 95 psi then you have 5% leakage which is acceptable.
You should be able to hear if air is leaking in excessive amounts from either the inlet manifold (inlet valves), the exhaust (exhuast valves), the breather (rings of could be a blown head gasket into an oil way/drain.), or the coolant header tank (head gasket), if you brim the latter then air should be seen bubbling up through the coolant if you have a head gasket problem.

I would exhaust (no pun intended) all the tests possible before I pulled the engine out as you could save yourself a lot of time, effort and money if this turns out to be some thing other than rings or head gasket.

Bob

i'm quite sure the liquid i saw through the plug hole is oil rather than fuel. it has the shine when i shone a light into the hole

ok.. so a leak down test is basically pushing compressed air into the engine and listen for leaks for the various components. shouuld be able to do that. funny thing is did not hear them complaining about a slipping piston when we were changing the valve stem. nevertheless, will try again

as for dismantling the engine, well, i'm not gonna to be the person doing the job. i'll just be there when they doing it, observing. and it won't cost me anything other than the spare parts cost only i'm itching to drive the da*n car!!!

[bobbrown]

The readings being low are most probably due to the throttle not being open.
The fact they are consistent leads me to believe that the head gasket is not the problem or the rings etc
If there was 1 or 2 cylinders lower than the others then my first choice would be head gasket but it could also indicate valves not seating correctly or piston ring not sealing.
If the dry cylinder was reading higher than the wet ones then I would suspect rings if the "wet" was oil and not fuel.
The fact that the fluid down the hole shines is not in it's self an indication it is oil what you need is a stick to get a sample to check and your nose may give the game away.
When did you see the fluid down the plug holes?
Was the engine hot or cold?
I would be more inclined to accept oil if the engine was hot.
What state are the plugs in?

A leak down test is a little more than listening for leaking air but listening does give an indication if the readings on the leak down gauge are low where the leakage is occurring.

I think if you carry out a compression test and a leakdown test as described you should get a better idea of where the problem lies.
If you fill up the coolant header tank to the top when you do the tests and the level stays the same then I would say the head gasket is fine, if there are bubbles then it is head gasket failure but I am still leaning towards a turbo problem.


IF you do go ahead with dismantling the engine I would make sure you have or you can get all the parts you may need and if you are pulling pistons etc I would change the bearing and seals on the bottom end as a matter of course.

[geoffsmithIsBarred]

I've posted a comment on your ElanScan logs elsewhere but your MAP sensor is reading low at tickover which should result in a leaner mix. I suppose that if it is reading high (for a reason I can't quite think of yet) at higher speeds, it may be overfuelling but that would give black smoke. Whatever it is, you need to post a log with the throttle open to confirm whether you need a new MAP sensor.

[PECKHS]

The readings being low are most probably due to the throttle not being open.
The fact they are consistent leads me to believe that the head gasket is not the problem or the rings etc
If there was 1 or 2 cylinders lower than the others then my first choice would be head gasket but it could also indicate valves not seating correctly or piston ring not sealing.
If the dry cylinder was reading higher than the wet ones then I would suspect rings if the "wet" was oil and not fuel.
The fact that the fluid down the hole shines is not in it's self an indication it is oil what you need is a stick to get a sample to check and your nose may give the game away.
When did you see the fluid down the plug holes?
Was the engine hot or cold?
I would be more inclined to accept oil if the engine was hot.
What state are the plugs in?

A leak down test is a little more than listening for leaking air but listening does give an indication if the readings on the leak down gauge are low where the leakage is occurring.

I think if you carry out a compression test and a leakdown test as described you should get a better idea of where the problem lies.
If you fill up the coolant header tank to the top when you do the tests and the level stays the same then I would say the head gasket is fine, if there are bubbles then it is head gasket failure but I am still leaning towards a turbo problem.


IF you do go ahead with dismantling the engine I would make sure you have or you can get all the parts you may need and if you are pulling pistons etc I would change the bearing and seals on the bottom end as a matter of course.

ok, to be exact, cylinder 1-3 is 120psi, #4 is 125. 1-3 are the ones which are 'wet'and #4 is the dry one. but i was thinking the difference was not too much

i should have dipped a stick and smelt the liquid. will try to do that before i remove the engine

saw the fluid after the engine was warmed up

used a set of new plugs for the last 2 weeks, and now they are covered with what looks like soot

just wondering, how can the turbo cause so much smoke? the turbo was supposingly 'just repaired' according to the previous owner

[bobbrown]

The difference in the readings is not enough to worry about so I would rule out head gasket or rings.
Sooty plugs are not necessarily a sign the engine is burning oil but could be down to a number of things like running a bit rich.

The fact that the turbo has supposedly just been repaired now puts my money firmly on the turbo, there are a few things to check like the oil drain but I suspect they got it wrong when it was repaired.
G UK had exactly this issue with a repaired turbo after only 1500 miles, lots of smoke and it was down to a failed thrust bearing which wrecked the seals, to quote "a dodgy turbo rebuild was another thrust bearing failure, this time the turbine seals failed massively injecting oil (and possibly coolant) into the exhaust which gave rather large billows of white smoke akin to when an F1 car blows" ring any bells.
I think he went for a new center section and rebuilt it him self but not sure these are available now.

Bob

[PECKHS]

i'll probably will get someone to check the turbo also then.

was thinking about it for the past few days. i knew what i was getting into when i bought the car at nearly half the market value locally. i was probably right in that the main reason the previous owner agreed to sell was he has kinda messed up the car with an imported engine and rebuilt turbo. his workshop was not able to rectify the problem then. they keep insisting that i just needed to modify the ECM...

i have already factored in the probable amount of time and money i will need to spend to make this car good for the road again. so, i will try to do a total rebuild, starting with the engine part. will make the engine run as per stock, then will upgrade the brake, refurbish the body, before i start to mod the engine

hope the friendly pple here will guide me along

tks

[bobbrown]

As the turbo has been off/reburbished recently it should not be too difficult to remove it again and have it checked over.
You should be able to block off the oil and coolant feeds to the turbo and with a bit of care at least start the engine with out the turbo to see if the smoke problem still exists and it may be that the engine does not need to be touched saving a lot of time, effort and money.
Ear defenders will be a must as engines are quite loud with no exhaust system.
So what is the history with this car?
It looks like a FED car from the videos, as it has the FED rear spoiler.

Bob

[PECKHS]

As the turbo has been off/reburbished recently it should not be too difficult to remove it again and have it checked over.
You should be able to block off the oil and coolant feeds to the turbo and with a bit of care at least start the engine with out the turbo to see if the smoke problem still exists and it may be that the engine does not need to be touched saving a lot of time, effort and money.
Ear defenders will be a must as engines are quite loud with no exhaust system.
So what is the history with this car?
It looks like a FED car from the videos, as it has the FED rear spoiler.

Bob

i sure hope it's the turbo as it will be an easier job.
will be away for the week so hopefully something can be done when i'm back
i'm not too sure about the history of the car, but it has 2 owners from new, and the previous owner has owned it since 1995. i got this car through his workshop which has been servicing it for the past 15 years. the workshop keeps telling me to change or modify the ecm, but wouldn't tell me why. the owner is not keen to talk abt the car, always claims he is busy or whatsoever. however, am quite sure the car is accident free as i send it for a chassis alignment test.
btw, what's a FED car? david says the engine looks different from his... wonder what that means

[bobbrown]

FED cars are the version that was made for the US market and has a different crash structure to the UK version and is most noticeable in the rear although the front is slightly longer again to do with the crash structure. Internally the main difference is the steering wheel which on the FED cars is on the other side and has an airbag.

Why they keep saying change the ECM I do not know, if the ECM was shot it would not run correctly and an Elan Scan would tend to give the game away in any case I would exhaust all other possibilities first before changing the ECM. It may be they had a hand in the repair of the Turbo and do not want to re visit that but they may well be forced to if it is faulty, may be a second opinion is needed.

As for the turbo being an easier job that is open to debate as although bearing kits are available if it has done some other damage you may have problems getting parts. May be better to see if you can pick up a used but good turbo there is one for sale at the moment on fleabay for £199.00 link but I have no idea what state it is in.

If you need any thing shipped to Singapore just ask as long as you are willing to pay for the shipping.

May be some pictures of the engine would help shed some light on the engine being different.

[PECKHS]

ok, i have confirmed that i need 3 sets of piston rings(make it 4 since 1 more doesn't make any difference..)
went to the workshop as soon as i dropped my luggages. engine's out, and have been send to the machine shop (dang! told my friend to hold on and yet... )
anyway, eveything has been stripped, engine bay is now empty.
3 out of the 4 pistons are blown. the bore has been enlarged, and will need to fit a new sleeve. i need piston rings also, and was told i need them to be 80mm. is 80mm a standard size, or oversized(there seems to be 2 sizes)
and, are those from rock auto suitable? or it's safer to get from SJs?

the same thing seemed to have happened to paulwatkins sometime in 2006 here
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=7281