Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

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Re: Spongy Brakes after bleeding

Postby Fredjohn » Wed 08.08.2018, 23:51

Changing the brake balancers is unlikely to affect the sponginess. Remove, strip clean and re-assemble by all means, but you will still need to bleed bleed bleed the brakes.
If the sliders are OK you can move the caliper by hand when pads are out.
Follow all procedures already outlined above and you'll get there. The likely culprits are the rear calipers. Make sure they are correctly assembled, handbrake adjusted and keep bleeding!
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Re: Spongy Brakes after bleeding

Postby dapinky » Thu 09.08.2018, 10:41

Joao,
I missed your call yesterday, but saw the message you sent me (I've replied, referring you to this post as it's easier to type on the laptop than my phone!)....

Firstly, the OE brakes are only really up to the job if they are in perfect condition - that means removal of all air from the system, rust from the discs, and ensure that the calipers and handbrake levers all move freely.

Bleeding the air out has been discussed at length many times - and is just a matter of keep doing it until it is done (I can be no more exact than that, I'm affraid).

The nature of brake disks is such that the very shiny and clean surfaces collect rust very easily once the car stops - even on a daily basis. Tiny bits like that will soon dissapear as soon as you use the brakes and are no great concern. However, if you get to the stage that there is a visible coating of rust around the disk, the chances are that it will reduce the effectiveness of the brakes for a while. The pads will 'wipe' the rust off, but whilst most of it will fly away as dust, some will embed itself into the pad material surface. After that, the more you brake, the further into the pad they get forced. Rust isn't as effective as a friction material, so brake performance diminishes. Also, over time, water from the air will soak into the pad material (only a tiny bit - but some).

I would suggest that you start by removing the disks from the car and give them a good clean with a wire brush mounted in an angle grinder to remove all rust from the area in contact with the brakes. Then see how smooth the surface is. Anything less than flat means that they should be replaced (okay, probably not as bad as that, but I change mine every year as they are cheap enough to do it). While the discs are out, remove the pads and clean the surface.... They need to be perfectly flat and perpendicular to the disc surface. The best way to do it at home is to place a piece of 80 grit sandpaper on a sheet of glass and rub the pad over it a few times - don't press too hard. The point is to remove the top half a mil of material, not to polish it and push rust further in. This should leave you a lovely flat (but not totally smooth) surface. If this can't be achieved, then new pads will be needed.
Also check that the calipers are sliding freely, etc before reasssembly.

This should give you a good brake feel and be sufficient to pass the MOT (and to drive safely!)

When you go to the garage, make sure that the boot is not full of heavy items - the test relies on manufacturers published vehicle weight, and calculates efficiency based on those figures - if the car is putting an extra 50Kg onto the rollers, they will need to show more braking effort to reach the required 50% efficiency (or 16% for handbrake).

One easy way to see how effective the rear brakes are (when considering the proportioning valves) is to examine the print-out from the MOT - it will show the force needed to lock up each of the wheels (not quite the right terminology, but you know what I mean). The front will be higher than the rear, as the front brakes are bigger/better.

Look at the figures for the rear - you will see seperate numbers for the service brake and the handbrake. The handbrake will be much higher than the foot brake (hopefully!). If so, then it indicates that there is far more that can be done to increase the footbrake efficiency, as the actual friction between the pads and discs is higher with the mechanical action of the handbrake - so you know that the pads/discs are now good. If the 2 numbers are very similar, it indicates a problem with the way the pads and discs contact each other, and it is below efficiency.... (like the rust we talked about above).

I would expect that with the work you have already done, a good clean of discs and pads will be enough to get you there (once you have used the brakes a couple of times to bed the new contact areas in).

The proportioning valves are fairly simple to change, BUT as I state in the original thread on them - they are not intended to increase the numbers just to pass an MOT - if the car can't pass an MOT, then there is something far more basic at fault, and changing to adjustable valves will only hide that fact, NOT cure it.
Dave

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go on - click this link - you know you want to!
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Re: Spongy Brakes after bleeding

Postby Tuga2112 » Thu 09.08.2018, 11:39

when it comes to the bleed discussion.
i see repeatedely the idea of "bleed bleed then bleed a bit more, bleed and bleed again"
this always makes me wonder "how much" bleeding is needed. now. last time i done it. i used the eazybleed and pumped in more than 2 litres of brake fluid across all lines. i let it continue to pump fluid through for minutes after the last buble.
i have also tilted the rear brake calipers and tapped the prop valves.
i really cant imagine how i can improve on that ? but the result is the same as when i first bought the car.
pedal feels hard pretty high when engine is off. as soon as engine is on. pedal drops considerably before starting to brake eficiently. and eventually if enough pressure is used (when its pretty much already on the floor). the front wheels lock.

i really have no clue what else i can do to "bleed it better" ?

based on comments. i will do the following (unless told not to)
1 swap the rear pads with new ones (that i bought with the refurb kits from rockauto)
2 clean surface rust of all 4 discs using a brass wire brush on an angle grinder
3 find something flat to put sandpaper on and scrape off a bit the front pads... i dont really want to replace them cus they barely got any use
4 re-confirm that all sliders are working, its worth noting that i refurbished the front driver side before the MOT as well.. it was just something i noticed by chanse when bleeding the whole system
5 "quickly" bleed them all again using the ezybleed.
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
91 MR2 Turbo (import) project
94 Celica GT4 (Import)
94 4Runner
98 Celica SR

too many projects. not enough sunny days :(
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Re: Code 12. but getting light coming up and missfire

Postby Tuga2112 » Thu 09.08.2018, 21:15

ICM fitted (as previously mentioned. and also got new coil packs installed.
the issue persists.
skip to 1:50 to see the problem.
link to video

(seems like video embeding is not working for unlisted videos ?)

I did check resistance between the CAS connector and the end that goes into the ICM. and got 0.7 and 0.8 on the orange and white wires.
I have checked in the past the ground connections on the ICM. although i didnt test while wigling the wires.
been wondering if this could be a fuel filter issue... the other thing im going to check is to confirm if theres any grounds related to this circuit that may have bolts not tight which could cause some electrical gremlin faults of this kind.

all help appreciated.
Last edited by Tuga2112 on Thu 09.08.2018, 22:55, edited 4 times in total.
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
91 MR2 Turbo (import) project
94 Celica GT4 (Import)
94 4Runner
98 Celica SR

too many projects. not enough sunny days :(
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Re: Code 12. but getting light coming up and missfire

Postby Tuga2112 » Thu 09.08.2018, 21:53

on facebook i have been suggested to look into the HES (hall effect sensor)

tomorow. i shall canibalise the blue car for its HES to find out if that is the problem. still, other ideas are welcome.
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
91 MR2 Turbo (import) project
94 Celica GT4 (Import)
94 4Runner
98 Celica SR

too many projects. not enough sunny days :(
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Re: Code 12. but getting light coming up and missfire

Postby GeoffSmith » Thu 09.08.2018, 22:08

Pound to a pinch of s**t it's electrical.
If you look carefully, the rev counter and warning lights are all over the place. Were you running ElanScan to monitor the battery voltage? Maybe an earthing issue or possibly alternator.
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Re: Code 12. but getting light coming up and missfire

Postby Tuga2112 » Thu 09.08.2018, 22:19

GeoffSmith wrote:Pound to a pinch of s**t it's electrical.
If you look carefully, the rev counter and warning lights are all over the place. Were you running ElanScan to monitor the battery voltage? Maybe an earthing issue or possibly alternator.


i did notice the rev counter seemed a bit odd.
but as far as warning lights. only the alternator one was constantly on. and the engine did came on and off when the missfire happened.

as i mentioned before
the other thing im going to check is to confirm if theres any grounds related to this circuit that may have bolts not tight which could cause some electrical gremlin faults of this kind.


im also wondering if its a bad earth. possibly something that was not connected properly when i fitted the top and plenum after changing the head gasket.
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
91 MR2 Turbo (import) project
94 Celica GT4 (Import)
94 4Runner
98 Celica SR

too many projects. not enough sunny days :(
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Re: Code 12. but getting light coming up and missfire

Postby Rambo » Fri 10.08.2018, 09:57

Alternator light should not be permanently on but this may be another issue ?

PS I do have an alternator light on permanently on my yellow car but it has been checked out and the alternator is providing the correct charge to the battery. It us due to an incorrect diode pack or rectifier
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Re: Code 12. but getting light coming up and missfire

Postby Tuga2112 » Fri 10.08.2018, 10:01

Rambo wrote:Alternator light should not be permanently on but this may be another issue ?

PS I do have an alternator light on permanently on my yellow car but it has been checked out and the alternator is providing the correct charge to the battery. It us due to an incorrect diode pack or rectifier

yes, mine is likely the same issue. I have checked voltage between "ign" terminals when the car was running last week and i was getting a little over 14 volts. proving that both alternator works, and the dial in the cluster is fairly accurate.

im not conserned about that one.

Its a bit of a hipocrisy to say this but im trying to "fix one problem at a time" (yes.. at the same time im actively updating a thread on brakes because the MOT failed on that)
lets rephrase that to "fix one problem at a time within an isolated system" :roll:
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
91 MR2 Turbo (import) project
94 Celica GT4 (Import)
94 4Runner
98 Celica SR

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Re: Code 12. but getting light coming up and missfire

Postby GeoffSmith » Fri 10.08.2018, 15:03

Tuga2112 wrote:
GeoffSmith wrote:Pound to a pinch of s**t it's electrical.
If you look carefully, the rev counter and warning lights are all over the place. Were you running ElanScan to monitor the battery voltage? Maybe an earthing issue or possibly alternator.


i did notice the rev counter seemed a bit odd.
but as far as warning lights. only the alternator one was constantly on. and the engine did came on and off when the missfire happened.

I meant that the warning light intensity resembled a Christmas tree João! :D

I've now watched it a few more times at quarter speed from ~1:46 and I think it's the alternator: The charge light increases in intensity (low volts at the regulator pack) then the seatbelt warning light decreases in intensity (low battery voltage), the CEL light comes on, the rev counter starts bouncing all over the place and it starts miss-firing. This is consistent with something (probably alternator) dragging down the battery voltage transiently sufficient to cause major issues with the ECU sensors and drive signals. In fact the CEL light coming on then going off is probably the ECU undergoing a power on reset.
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Re: Code 12. but getting light coming up and missfire

Postby Giniw » Fri 10.08.2018, 15:08

(Is there a seatbelt warning light on the UK Elan?! I don't have one on mine?!)
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Re: Code 12. but getting light coming up and missfire

Postby Tuga2112 » Fri 10.08.2018, 16:17

Giniw wrote:(Is there a seatbelt warning light on the UK Elan?! I don't have one on mine?!)

yes, although mine had the wiring rusted through completely.

when i fitted the rebuilt interior i required it. thats why it works in my car now. I didnt know it existed untill i took the seat out because it only switches on IF the connection to the lock is established
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
91 MR2 Turbo (import) project
94 Celica GT4 (Import)
94 4Runner
98 Celica SR

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Re: Code 12. but getting light coming up and missfire

Postby Giniw » Fri 10.08.2018, 16:38

Strange, I never knew that.
I will have to have a look at mine ^^
Thanks!
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Re: Code 12. but getting light coming up and missfire

Postby Tuga2112 » Fri 10.08.2018, 23:27

GeoffSmith wrote:I meant that the warning light intensity resembled a Christmas tree João! :D

I've now watched it a few more times at quarter speed from ~1:46 and I think it's the alternator: The charge light increases in intensity (low volts at the regulator pack) then the seatbelt warning light decreases in intensity (low battery voltage), the CEL light comes on, the rev counter starts bouncing all over the place and it starts miss-firing. This is consistent with something (probably alternator) dragging down the battery voltage transiently sufficient to cause major issues with the ECU sensors and drive signals. In fact the CEL light coming on then going off is probably the ECU undergoing a power on reset.


could this alternator behaviour be caused by the alternator belt not being tentioned enough ?
when i refitted everything after the head gasket change, the alternator belt tentioning was extremely dificult. so im wondering if its not done properly.
its possible i have plugged smoe earth wire in the intake plenun not tight enought or something on those lines.

EDITED
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
91 MR2 Turbo (import) project
94 Celica GT4 (Import)
94 4Runner
98 Celica SR

too many projects. not enough sunny days :(
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Re: Code 12. but getting light coming up and missfire

Postby Tuga2112 » Tue 21.08.2018, 18:44

after a bit of a chat with geoff over fakebook. and some mild diagnosis of the xmas show that my dashboard was.

Geoff concluded my problem was likely a bad earth.
considering this issue developed soon after the head gasket change. i looked for the wires that were messed with with my task and found the culprit.
Image
tightened the bolt. and the missfire and all other problems disappeared.
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
91 MR2 Turbo (import) project
94 Celica GT4 (Import)
94 4Runner
98 Celica SR

too many projects. not enough sunny days :(
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Re: Spongy Brakes after bleeding

Postby Tuga2112 » Tue 21.08.2018, 23:17

after all that process. took the car for mot and passed with 17% on the handbrake and 54% on the foot (i think those were the figures, not 100% sure).
the mechanic told me theres no weight on the back and it would pass easier if there was more weight on the back.

i am counting on getting the same issue next year but for now i got another year of motoring ahead.
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
91 MR2 Turbo (import) project
94 Celica GT4 (Import)
94 4Runner
98 Celica SR

too many projects. not enough sunny days :(
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Re: Spongy Brakes after bleeding

Postby Rambo » Wed 22.08.2018, 09:18

My rear brakes pass the MOT checks much easier if I have 3 bags of coal in the boot :wink:
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Re: Spongy Brakes after bleeding

Postby Tuga2112 » Wed 22.08.2018, 09:26

Rambo wrote:My rear brakes pass the MOT checks much easier if I have 3 bags of coal in the boot :wink:

i heard that rumor before.
im thinking a couple crates of beer and some spare parts (like... the discs from my celica) will be in the boot next year.. i may forget the crates of beer at the garage :lol:
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
91 MR2 Turbo (import) project
94 Celica GT4 (Import)
94 4Runner
98 Celica SR

too many projects. not enough sunny days :(
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Re: Spongy Brakes after bleeding

Postby Fredjohn » Wed 22.08.2018, 11:53

Rambo wrote:My rear brakes pass the MOT checks much easier if I have 3 bags of coal in the boot :wink:


As coal is an increasingly rare commodity (if that is not a contradiction in terms!) may be we should start a list and source some now before it's too late, list aversions aside.....................
La vie passe vite: vivez la avec elan(s).

Elan S4 DHC 1969
Elan SE turbo 1992
MB CLK 320CDi 2007
Boardman Elite SLR Endurance 9.8 carbon road bike
Evora 2010
VW T4 Campervan
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Re: Spongy Brakes after bleeding

Postby Tuga2112 » Wed 22.08.2018, 13:07

Fredjohn wrote:
Rambo wrote:My rear brakes pass the MOT checks much easier if I have 3 bags of coal in the boot :wink:


As coal is an increasingly rare commodity (if that is not a contradiction in terms!) may be we should start a list and source some now before it's too late, list aversions aside.....................


i disagree. rambo has a strong point, thanks to trump coal will return! :lol: :lol: :lol:
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
91 MR2 Turbo (import) project
94 Celica GT4 (Import)
94 4Runner
98 Celica SR

too many projects. not enough sunny days :(
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