Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

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Re: Spongy Brakes after bleeding

Postby dapinky » Wed 11.07.2018, 19:29

I find that a metal spanner is more effective than a rubber mallet - it only needs a light tap (or series of taps) with a 19mm spanner as you bleed the system - just enough to agitate the air bubbles and free them.

Remember to tap the prop valves before the calipers though, otherwise any air freed from the valves may well then jam in the caliper.
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Re: Spongy Brakes after bleeding

Postby Tuga2112 » Wed 11.07.2018, 19:51

I have had another go at this. i forgot the tapping again. and im unsure where to tap now.
i did remove the bottom bolt and tilted the caliper as previously mentioned.
i also found one of the bleed nipples was letting fluid out through the threads while bleding. so assuming it was also letting air in. i took it out, and used PTF tape to improve the seal around the threads.

I did run/pump about half litre of fluid on each rear brake. halfway through one of the sides. i did find a decently sized volume of air.. and at the end there was no bubbles anywhere.
but when i took it for a test drive. as soon as the engine started. the pedal started to feel spongy again.

also i get this sound when pressing the pedal that seems like pumping air all the way down till the moment the pedal start to resist a bit and the brakes begin their minimal effect.

im wondering if i need to do something in specific to bleed the master cilinder ? (it was completely dryed out while i refurbished the brakes)
i get the feeling theres still air in the system, but its not in the lines themselfs. but in the pedal mechanism.

i also came across this

maybe for the 20 odd quid i should give that german ebay link a try ?
1991 elan se
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Re: Spongy Brakes after bleeding

Postby HJ2 » Wed 11.07.2018, 21:02

As said: try using an easybleed or a proper brake bleeder.
In the end it will work!
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Re: Spongy Brakes after bleeding

Postby Tuga2112 » Wed 11.07.2018, 21:08

HJ2 wrote:As said: try using an easybleed or a proper brake bleeder.
In the end it will work!

I Have one of those tubes with a valve at the end. that you just put at the nipple and start pumping.

I can buy an easyBleed. or vaccum pump. those are within my budget. but i would need to know which of the 2 options is the most efficient?
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
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Re: Spongy Brakes after bleeding

Postby Fredjohn » Wed 11.07.2018, 22:11

Get an easibleed. Simple to use, controllable and one man operation.
And don't forget to tap the balancers to get the air out before doing same with the loosened calipers.
It is a long repetitive operation which requires patience followed by more patience and repetition.
Oh and as Geoff says, tighten the banjo properly, that's probably where air is getting in....
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Re: Spongy Brakes after bleeding

Postby Tuga2112 » Thu 12.07.2018, 08:02

Fredjohn wrote:as Geoff says, tighten the banjo properly, that's probably where air is getting in....

ive broken 2 banjo bolts already. im not sure how to tighten it properly anymore. i got new copper washers there and cant see any fluid leaking but still not sure how to be 100% certain theres no leak there.
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
91 MR2 Turbo (import) project
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Re: Spongy Brakes after bleeding

Postby Bern » Thu 12.07.2018, 10:53

Another recommendation for the easibleed - you can leave it going while you crawl around underneath tapping bits with your 19mm spanner (though maybe 20mm and 18mm will work as well? ;-) ).

I had an MG B that I couldn't bleed properly, I left it overnight with the brake pedal held down, and in the morning it was fine! Depending on where the air is, that might work!
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Re: Spongy Brakes after bleeding

Postby Tuga2112 » Thu 12.07.2018, 20:48

Bern wrote: I left it overnight with the brake pedal held down, and in the morning it was fine! Depending on where the air is, that might work!


has anyone tried this on the elan ?

i bought an e-z bleed and had another go today.
also tapped plenty all over the brake lines.
at the end i started the engine and pressed the brake (still on the air) a bunch of times. soon after starting the test i realised there must be a leak somewhere because the pedal travel before i found resistance was incresing over time.

i had a look around while my dad was pressing the pedal and on the first corner i noticed the bleed valve was leaking. so i used some TPF tape to improve the seal and put it back.

car down on the floor and took it up the street and down again.. the brakes dont feel perfect. but a lot better. and if there is a leak at the moment. it must be small, after about 2 minutes pumping there was no noticeable increase in the pedal's "free travel "

still. i need to figure out how to bleed this better because i still get something between 1/3 or 1/4 of the full pedal travel happens without any resistance.

on a somewat related topic. does anyone know the exact dimentions of the bleed nipples for both front and rear brakes ? the hex connections are starting to round a bit and i want to replace them before they become a problem.
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
91 MR2 Turbo (import) project
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94 4Runner
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Re: Spongy Brakes after bleeding

Postby Giniw » Thu 12.07.2018, 21:53

If I remember correctly the bleed nipples are still available from sjsportscar (and probably deroure?). Or at least they were, not so long ago.
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Re: Spongy Brakes after bleeding

Postby Tuga2112 » Thu 12.07.2018, 22:38

Giniw wrote:If I remember correctly the bleed nipples are still available from sjsportscar (and probably deroure?). Or at least they were, not so long ago.

both SJ and rockauto have them.
im curious as of the exact dimentions as it turns out "non-branded" fittings like these are usually a lot cheaper. (for example. the SJ rear banjo bolts are 3.98 + postage + vat, while these are 3.79 delivered )

I found out the rear are deroure M10 30mm 1.5 pitch. which turns out to be rather dificult to find as most M10 nipples are all 1.0 pitch.
wasnt able to find specks on the fronts yet, but i will investigate further.
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
91 MR2 Turbo (import) project
94 Celica GT4 (Import)
94 4Runner
98 Celica SR

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Re: Spongy Brakes after bleeding

Postby Giniw » Thu 12.07.2018, 23:45

I understand but to be honest I wouldn't risk a low quality bolt or bleed nipple for my brakes. The price percentage difference may be high but in the end the absolute price difference is very low, and as for the shipping costs I always have more to order than just a couple of bleed nipples so that doesn't really matter for me.
Last edited by Giniw on Wed 08.08.2018, 18:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Spongy Brakes after bleeding

Postby Tuga2112 » Mon 16.07.2018, 14:48

took the car to work today as the brakes are as good as last time i bleed them (which is pretty much the same level of "goodness" as when i bought the car.

i still feel like theres plenty of room for improvement. but ideally i will be confirming that whenever i find a kind elan woner soul that will allow me to test drive their car. to compare the pedal feel.
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
91 MR2 Turbo (import) project
94 Celica GT4 (Import)
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Code 12. but getting light coming up and missfire

Postby Tuga2112 » Mon 16.07.2018, 20:55

hello again.

my yellow elan is REALLY not in the mood to go back on the road.

most people reading this already know my struggles for the past 2 months. so, feel free to skip the next long sentence.

im going to try to give the background as short as possible for those new, I had the car stopped for 8 months because i found out there was water mixed with the oil. after that in preparation for CC meetup, i changed the head gasket, every since then the engine has been complaining. initially i didnt tighten up the tensioner properly, which caused some interesting behaviour, after fixing the tensioner problem i found out the timing belt was a tooth off, after fixing that the iddle was too high, which i managed to resolve by setting the timing. and while doing that job i found an oil leak in the oil radiator which has also been changed... to add to that. while the car was in the air i have refurbished the rear brakes which forced me to bleed the whole system 4 times before the brakes were efficient enough for me to risk driving it.

now theres no oil leak, and the car is iddling at a speed that "feels right" while reading just a little over the 1k mark.

my problem is.. this morning i took the car to work. it didnt skip a beat. a joy of a drive without any issue at all.
this afternoon the return trip is a whole different story.
initially the car starts fine and iddles, when i start to drive it very randomly it simply appears to skip a spark and i feel the jolt of no power like if i just hit the brake. and striahgt after that the power delivery is perfectly fine.
this happened a lot of times during my trip back home. sometimes the "missing power/spark" would be pre-warned by the engine light flashing. and some times it just happened.
this "missing spark" is more regular when at higher revs than when iddling. but on accelaration it happens a more often, its specially more noticeable when i try to really pick up the speed quickly.

i have one lead on this issue, although it may be based on worthless data. so opinions are welcome.
my suspicion is that theres an issue in the distributor underneath the water reservoir.
the reason for this is the fact that while i was setting the timing after the timing belt being fitted. i noticed the flashes in the gun were not 100% regular, there was an ocasional revolution that i would expect a flash but it never happened.
i did not pay attention to that while setting the timing as my gun was drawing power for a different battery to the one in the car, and assumed it could be related to that anomaly in the setup. BUT at the moment. given the new issue arising i drawn a different impression.

where should i look next to diagnose this issue ?
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
91 MR2 Turbo (import) project
94 Celica GT4 (Import)
94 4Runner
98 Celica SR

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Re: Code 12. but getting light coming up and missfire

Postby Tuga2112 » Mon 16.07.2018, 21:25

i had a look and seems like "coil pack" is the part im talking about... at a modest price in sjs (can you sence the sarcasm yet?)

i can swap leads as i have some spare. the plugs are fairly new but i will swap those as well before taking the 500+ quid plunge. (obviously at this moment refurbish/rebuild is something i havent investigated yet)

still. the only thought i had so far to help diagnose the issue is to plug the timing gun and let it flash... see if the missing flashes coinside with the drops in power. which in turn can allow me to confirm if the issue is isolated to a single cilinder or to multiple cilinders

im still looking forward to other ideas... just dumping mine here as well to give an idea of what has crossed my mind so far.

EDIT
been doing some more reading and came across this on facebook.
"1) If you have noticed that on cool, damp days or after driving in
the rain (especially on the highway, especially behind cars/trucks) the
engine is running rough and misfiring, chances are the coil pack has a
crack(s)."


very interesting as this morning the weather was pretty dry, but when i drove off work it was raining. this is related to a different car however.
When this happens, the "check engine light" WILL come on
immediately, because the emissions just went to hell.

maybe just a coincidence?

the solution described further on is to ensure theres no cracks in the pack and basically plug them with epoxy... although the description of the issue seems.. graphical enough to scare me a bit.
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
91 MR2 Turbo (import) project
94 Celica GT4 (Import)
94 4Runner
98 Celica SR

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Re: Code 12. but getting light coming up and missfire

Postby Saltire » Mon 16.07.2018, 21:34

Rock Auto have lots of alternatives to choose from at prices much less than SJ (under Isuzu Impulse Turbo). There are also some NGK ones on eBay at the moment.
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Re: Code 12. but getting light coming up and missfire

Postby Tuga2112 » Mon 16.07.2018, 21:53

Saltire wrote:Rock Auto have lots of alternatives to choose from at prices much less than SJ (under Isuzu Impulse Turbo). There are also some NGK ones on eBay at the moment.

makes sence. but as usuall i never know when to search for an isuzu part, vauxhall, GM. or whatever.. so. good call Jonathan. Already checking rockauto and those prices are a lot more inviting.
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
91 MR2 Turbo (import) project
94 Celica GT4 (Import)
94 4Runner
98 Celica SR

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Re: Code 12. but getting light coming up and missfire

Postby dapinky » Mon 16.07.2018, 22:33

Joao,

The coil pack is actually made up of 3 seperate parts..... A base plate, and 2 coils (each coil feeding 2 spark plugs).

I would be tempted to swap one of the coil packs from your other car to see if that makes a difference. If it does, happy days! If not, swap the other one for the one you took off at step one and try again.

If that still doesn't make a difference, then try the base plates, as you will have eliminated the individual coils from the problem.

Although the OE coils are labeled for the cylinders they feed, they are both identical. generic parts should be no more than £30-£40 each - and can often be found cheaper. They are common to quite a few GM cars of the era (USA market especially).

John C (Brit car nut) did have a few base plates in stock a while ago (which were advertised on here for sale) so he may or may not be in a position to help if that is the part you require - far better than paying a shed load of ££££ for a 'Lotus' part which isn't a Lotus part.
Dave

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go on - click this link - you know you want to!
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Re: Code 12. but getting light coming up and missfire

Postby Rambo » Mon 16.07.2018, 22:54

As Jonathon and Dave have previously mentioned, don't t spend £££ when you can easily get the coil packs from EBay.

But first, try Dave's suggestion and swap out the good coil packs from your blue M100 before going further :wink:
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Re: Code 12. but getting light coming up and missfire

Postby Tuga2112 » Tue 17.07.2018, 19:31

Rambo wrote:As Jonathon and Dave have previously mentioned, don't t spend £££ when you can easily get the coil packs from EBay.

But first, try Dave's suggestion and swap out the good coil packs from your blue M100 before going further :wink:


I shall be doing that tomorow

today im just researching the parts to buy and "how to" remove the coil pack. Toby's got a video on it so ill be watching that a few times to be confident its a quick job.
also after seeing the rockauto prices (and because i already know where to get HT leads locally) im considering ordering the spares regardless mainly for the purpose of having then if need be.

I was looking at the coils in rockauto and noticed the impulse turbo range is slightly different to the isozu trooper range which toby refers to in the video.
im not sure how the "economy" and "standard" ranges are so different, i would be tempted to buy the denso branded ones but the difference in price makes them a lot less appealing than the economy range ones.

Someone mentioned brit car nut, so i will be dropping him a PM in the topic as if im getting stuff from the US, i may end up just getting it from him if he has the parts.
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
91 MR2 Turbo (import) project
94 Celica GT4 (Import)
94 4Runner
98 Celica SR

too many projects. not enough sunny days :(
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Re: Code 12. but getting light coming up and missfire

Postby Brit-Car-Nut » Tue 17.07.2018, 20:10

PM replied to...
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