URGENT: Brakes. Help yourselves

[Jackonicko]

I sit here having lost six hours of my life. Could have been so much worse.

My brakes gave up the ghost in immediate and catastrophic fashion just before 1800. Mercifully they did so as I was on an empty road, travelling very slowly as I thought I'd seen a Police camera van up ahead.

When I went to dab the brake, my foot hit the floor. It was effing terrifying.

Pulling over, my front offside wheel was covered in brake fluid, and the wheel arch liner was wet with the stuff.

My brakes had gone from awesome to NON EXISTENT in the space of a single journey.

I have front Hi Specs with braided stainless hoses.

The aforementioned hoses had been chafing the inner wheel at full lock, my friendly AA man said, when he eventually pitched up, and the offside hose chose that moment to fail catastrophically. I then waited for a full recovery truck and had the car transported to Steve Williams'. My, he will be pleased..........

Please, one and all, go and check your brake hoses at full lock as soon as its light enough to do so.

This could have killed me, or written off a decent Elan.

You may imagine that I'm really not amused.

[MattDon]

same thing happened to me but was right outside my local garage, dont know what your setup is but i was on goodridge hoses and they didnt come with one of the clamps plus i was on my compomotives which had counter weights on the inside for asthetic reasons, the whole lot gave up within a few days of fitting, was rather miffed at the people who fitted the tyres and wheels for not noticing. but got a set from bobbrown, which have worked faultlesly since. glad you in one piece, bloody scary when they give up, nearly as bad as the time my shoe lace got caught in my pedals, now that was scary, left foot of course.

[theelanman]

yep.....happened to me too.....
once on the m100 and once on the +2...
the m100 was the result of the hose rubbing on the wheel
the +2 was due to the vibration of the engine as the main hose runs accross the top of the block....
the m100 was lucky as I had just driven rather quickly to my MOT...2 pushes of the pedal later (during the MOT) and pop....brake fluid everywhere...
the +2 was coming up to a roundabout....at the end of a dual carriageway...doing about 80....
good job there was nothing on the road......

[rip]

Glad to hear you're ok.

This was a known issue discussed during a group buy of Goodridge brake hoses 2-3 years ago.
Mine are tied out of the way, but it won't hurt to check 'em again.

[Alan_C]

So much for the idea with split dual braking systems, supposed to be 2 seperate systems, split diagonally front/rear, should you lose one system, such as a split hose, the other remains in working order, allowing at least some braking effect. This has every time shown not to be the case. I have fitted Hi Spec brakes with replacement braded hoses (supplied by Bob), these have the clip to retain them, but the routing was still not easy, and I hope they're not chafing. I will check them in a few minutes, I'm about to go out in the car with my wife. I guess if you can't actually see if the hoses ae rubbing, just carefully feel along them, any sign of roughness of a nick would indicate a problem.

[ashm]

I had exactly the same problem with the new HEL lines on the old car - very difficult to get the routing right on the OSF so the line won't rub on the wheel. It took me ages to get them properly installed because of this. If you have a 3rd party install your brake upgrade, make damn sure they check and double check the routing before letting you leave in the car. They should know that they need to be careful with this, but apparently some aren't being as careful as they should.

I initially routed the line with the car on axle stands on the inner jacking points - bad move, everything changes when the weight's on the wheel. Took about 3 more attempts to get the routing right, each time with a _very_ slow drive round the block with lots of right and left lock, then checking to see whether there was any chafing against the wheel. Got it right in the end, but I got into the habit of having a look under there every week or so just to make sure! Put some marker on the line so you can see if it's rubbing.

This is one instance where you really want a pit or drive-on lift so you can poke around behind the wheel with the suspension loaded. And remember to think about what'll happen on left hand cornering as well - tricky.

Adam

[RayD]

As mentioned on here I wouldn't fit stainless braided hoses - even under the kitchen sink ... if there is an original type hose with the outer protective spring available for the aftermarket callipers they’d be a better idea.

Ray

[bobbrown]

This is an issue which I have now looked at and think I have the solution and that is to not allow too much of the hose to be past the center mount.
In the case of the hoses with a center mount then the hose needs a cable tie to hold it in place to stop it sliding about.
The section that sticks out is soft enough to clamp the hose when a cable tie is placed around it and tightened.
This is done on mine and they are fine and have been for the past 12 months and some 4k

hose fitting.jpg

As for the Goodridge hoses then it depends on how they are held in the middle as to what you do, some I think have a piece of rubber hose over the brake hose and this goes through the center mount with cable ties on either side so assuming in the right place should be fine.
If you use the "P" clip that came with the Goodridge hoses then I can not say as I do not know just where you are suposed to put the "P" clip.

[inkitin]

That must have been hellish scary!! Very glad you came out of it OK.

Time to check mine next time she's out of the garage. Thanks for the warning.

[whippit]

ive fitted HEL lines all round and found them to be a pain in arse,
after first fitting the fronts, i took it for the mot and found the front lines had scraped the paint of my brand new s2 wheels ,
only drove a few miles and the lines where through to the braiding
i had to do as bob said on mine ,cable tie on both sides of the mount, ive tried fitting the banjo facing up , down, left , right , still only managed to get about five mil clearance to the wheel,
i',m sill paranoid about the clearance, especially after fitting a switchable chip, still enjoying spirited driving

[RayD]

Remember my brakes are standard so I haven’t had opportunity to study the modified set up closely.

Is it practical to have the final hose made in two parts such that the joint coincides with the existing bracket and could be secured firmly in place – metal to metal?

Then there’s the position and direction of the new calliper inlet ... if the second part of the new two piece hose started at the existing bracket is it possible to get the steering movement taking place in the centre of the hose as it does on the original?

If you've forgotten what it looks like ... imagine a question mark falling to the left through 90º The bent hose is in a vertical plain.

Is it possible to get the hose not to reach the wheel under any circumstances?

On the subject of the dual master cylinder system failing ...

Would it have worked if you had time to pump the pedal?

Has anyone seen it work on the standard set up?

Could it be related to pedal travel with the increased calliper capacity?

If the dual system definitely doesn’t work with upgraded brakes I wonder if it's worth changing the pipes over to front and rear instead of diagonal ... at least with a rear pipe failure the chances of stopping would increase.

Ray

[Andy_J]

Having read all the previous posts on the issue of stainless braided hoses rubbing on the wheels, I have been running around with the hoses loosely tide to the uppre fron wishbone for the last 3 years without a problem. It does not look pretty but it save the issue of brake failure

[Alan_C]

On the subject of the dual master cylinder system failing ...

So how does a twin split system still work when one single part has failed? When I last bled the brakes manually, I opened a bleed valve (the same effect as a ruptured brake hose), and pushed the brake pedal, there was some feel to the pedal, but it slowly went down, the more I opened the bleed valve (or the bigger the rupture) the easier it was to push the pedal, until it was as far as it could go, touching the carpet. Now what was the presure in the 3 other calipers? Very little I presume.

[RayD]

Alan,

A split system isn’t designed to be nearly working. From an hydraulic point of view they are supposed to be separate.

As you know there is only half of the brakes in use and the braking effect will go down accordingly. When one pipe bursts two callipers stop working, one at the front and the opposite corner at the back.

With a tandem system - a single rod pushing both pistons end to end - there will be a pedal travel issue as opposed to two pistons running side by side.

The effect you're seeing during the bleeding process is probably due to air still being in the other half.

If it were possible to get all the air out of one circuit ... even with the other bleed valves open ... there should be a usable amount of braking, and the pedal travel would record what it was going to be like during a single pipe failure.

If it turns out under these circumstances – with original callipers – there is no pedal travel left - they made a mistake at the factory.

Andy,

If you've found a way to fix the hoses such that they won’t reach any of the moving parts under any circumstances other people ought to be copying your idea until a better solution is found.

Ray

[ashm]

If it turns out under these circumstances – with original callipers – there is no pedal travel left - they made a mistake at the factory.

I suspected that this might be the case since the first time I bled the brakes on my old Elan. I think at some point it might be a good idea to think about a twin master cylinder project for safety reasons, particularly for those with non-stock hoses and 15" wheels. I'd rate this higher than rollbars on my to-do list.

Adam

[nicowalker1]

These cars are really starting to worry me

Like others have said, glad you are ok!

[saska]

These cars are really starting to worry me

Don't worry too much -- you've always got the hand brake. I've tried stopping both cars with just hand brake -- HiSpecs all-round on one and OEM on the other.
Both stopped just fine. You don't get get good stopping distances without the fronts but they both definitely will stop the car.
I was quite surprised at how short the hand brake only stopping distances were.
The HiSpecs take a load of hand brake lever effort but the more effort you give them, the more they stop. The HiSpec rears are, after all, the same size as the OEM fronts.

[bobbrown]

I have given this a bit more thought and it may be that the hose needs to come off the caliper at 45 degrees so you are angled away from the wheel at the start. I am getting a set of hoses made up with a 45 degree banjo on the end to see how this effects the routing of the hoses.
Will post the results once I have them.

[Jackonicko]

Saska,

Not all of us who have upgraded the fronts have also upgraded the rears, therefore not all of us have a handbrake up to the job of stopping an Elan at anything like full chat.

I'm sure that those of us who have upgraded brakes did so without thinking that doing so might actually compromise our safety, and that while new brakes might be more effective, they might also be less dependable. We all need to know that when we push that pedal and mean it, we're going to f*cking stop, not that we might either:

a) stop really smartly (much better than with stock brakes)
or b) not stop at all.

Ray D,

There may have been a little braking on the opposite side - I braked very gently half a mile before the incident and may not have noticed anything awry. When I then went to brake on the occasion when everything turned to ratsh*t, the car did fishtail once before my foot hit the floor. Perhaps that was the last gasp of the opposite circuit?

It wasn't enough to make a material difference to stopping.

I was, however, slamming down through the gears, jabbing on the hazards, checking behind for upcoming traffic and on the opposite carriageway in case I lost directional control and looking for my escape route, all while pumping the pedal without effect, so my focus was not on calmly and collectedly noting the symptoms.


I'm having a lot of other issues at the moment, with both my wife and I suddenly due for urgent medical tests (unrelated), with a High Court appearance next week and down to one car right when I don't need to be. I think I'm going to have to hire one!

[maz_r]

Jacko: glad you are OK - a proper 'brown alert' moment....

Just had the HiSpec kit fitted by my local 'classic cars' garage. They really stuggled to get the HEL braided hoses to sit correctly on the fronts. Rears were no problem.

In fact, so concerned were they, that they wouldn't let me have the car back as they couldn't find a way (esp on the OSF) to route the lines without it rubbing on the inside of the wheel (15").

In the end, I bought some 90 degree banjos (45 degrees might be just as effective) and new lines which were shorter than the HELs and they fitted straight on without any dramas. The garage also suggested going straight into the calipers without any banjos at all; I have no idea whether this is good practice or not, I am just repeating their suggestion.

I haven't done (m)any miles yet, but I'll report back. Will post some pic's when I get back from holiday. What is still unknown is the additional stress that the banjo will be under given the bend is solid pipework.....