The cheapest way to upgrade the brakes.

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Re: The cheapest way to upgrade the brakes.

Postby Rusty Wishbone » Tue 18.11.2014, 23:35

I don't have much to add about braking, but I would like to say how stimulating this discussion is. It is a brilliant example of vigorous disagreement and debate with courtesy and respect. Good show chaps!
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Re: The cheapest way to upgrade the brakes.

Postby tb10 » Wed 19.11.2014, 10:10

:agree:

:cheers:

...............and having just bought the replacement LM50014, I'll fit it and enter the debate in due course!

regards

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Re: The cheapest way to upgrade the brakes.

Postby RayD » Wed 19.11.2014, 11:25

Phil,

I notice the QUOTE function isn't working for you when you are posting ...

I click the QUOTE button which opens a box containing ...

[xquote="Rusty Wishbone"]I don't have much to add about braking, but I would like to say how stimulating this discussion is. It is a brilliant example of vigorous disagreement and debate with courtesy and respect. Good show chaps![x/quote] (minus the 2 x's)

Then type my reply, click preview and if I'm happy with the result click submit.

So I end with this ...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rusty Wishbone wrote:I don't have much to add about braking, but I would like to say how stimulating this discussion is. It is a brilliant example of vigorous disagreement and debate with courtesy and respect. Good show chaps!


Thanks Rusty

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's essential to have the [xquote="Rusty Wishbone"] and the [x/quote] (minus the 2 x's) in place, but you can delete anything from within the quotes.

Like so ...

Rusty Wishbone wrote:I don't have much to add about braking, but I would like to say how stimulating this discussion is. It is a brilliant example of vigorous disagreement and debate with courtesy and respect.



Hope this helps

Ray
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Re: The cheapest way to upgrade the brakes.

Postby norman lovie » Wed 19.11.2014, 21:33

i'm taking the one key bit of info out of this whole discussion

As and when I change a mechanical part of the hydraulic system of the brakes - on any car i'm working on - I will do the brake nipple bleed test to validate if I still have some brakes - if I loose a circuit - good advise
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Re: The cheapest way to upgrade the brakes.

Postby johanvanboven » Wed 19.11.2014, 23:51

Dear Elan lovers,

I like reading all the discussions about the brakes. Some comments would be suitable for another item, 'things that made you smile today'.

Before I ever started this topic, everything you can imagine was sorted out.

It could be my responsability if someone would be injured due to a failing brake circuit after fitting another MC. This could be taken to court, and that is the last thing I would want.

As told in the first post, changing to a smaller MC, brings you to an Opel (Vauxhall) setup. Do they risk to make unsafe cars?

Also, I never recommended this smaller MC when you have bigger piston calipers.

The reason why I did not write down all calculations, theorethic stuff etc. is: 1. to difficult for me to write in english as it is not my native language, and 2. most important, keep it simple and understandable for those who are interested in it.

I hope for those who fitted it that they are pleased with it. And that they do not have to worry about safety. Maybe they feel safer now and drive faster, but this is out of my responsibility.


Next year, I will be looking at the vacuum system for the booster. Has anybody done some measurements about it? I think vacuum drops to much when pushing the brake pedal and does not build up fast enough to get a 'progressive feel'.

Could be solved with an electric vacuum pump.

But my Elan is wearing his winter-sleeping-dress now, and does not wake up before March.

To be continued.
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Re: The cheapest way to upgrade the brakes.

Postby HJ2 » Thu 20.11.2014, 08:15

I like the way you think Johan!

I also notices a slack in generating the vacuum. I think a bigger or second vacuum bottle would help just as good, without adding an additional pump to the equation :D
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Re: The cheapest way to upgrade the brakes.

Postby steble » Tue 24.02.2015, 11:14

I bought an Elan at the weekend, i'm glad I found this thread I will be doing this straight away
YELLOW ELAN M100
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Re: The cheapest way to upgrade the brakes.

Postby johanvanboven » Wed 25.02.2015, 23:41

Hi Steve,
Thx for the confidence and reply with your findings if you have changed the MC.
Positive or negative, all feedback is welcome.
I will add some post to 'appalling brakes' which has nothing to do with this thread.
BR, Johan
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Re: The cheapest way to upgrade the brakes.

Postby epipete » Fri 06.11.2015, 17:08

johanvanboven wrote:Hi, as I told before, it is a nice improvement for normal use.
Now you can slow down and stop in any situation, but do not slow down from 100 mph untill zero for a few times, the original brakes cannot handle this.

...... the plug and play master cylinder is still available: http://www.mister-auto.co.uk/en/search_ ... MF172.html

BR. Johan


This is a fascinating thread, though I confess it all became a bit academic after page two :shock:

Just getting back to the meat of the subject does the target of this link purchase me the correct BMC for use on a std system using OEM front brakes, PNM rears with std 2/15 RPV?

The reason for asking is that everything on my brake system will be either new or tested aside from the BMC shortly so I may as well go the whole hog particularly if there is some overall improvement.

Thanks

Pete
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Re: The cheapest way to upgrade the brakes.

Postby lotusles » Fri 06.11.2015, 22:44

Glad this article has appeared as I was about to send of for a set of grooved front discs to go with the green pads already fitted.

Am I right in thinking that grooved discs are no better than good standard discs?
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Re: The cheapest way to upgrade the brakes.

Postby rip » Sat 07.11.2015, 19:14

The theory is that the grooves scrape the glaze from the pads. There is just as much scepticism as support for this.

They will not increase the force on your pads.
They are the same diameter so this will provide no improvement in braking torque either.
Is the material the same? Probably. If it is, then no improvement there.
Heat dissipation will only be marginally improved.
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Re: The cheapest way to upgrade the brakes.

Postby dapinky » Sat 07.11.2015, 19:48

There are extra theories about the 'benefits' of grooved and/or dimpled discs, but also a couple of 'against' points.....

.... the thing to remember is that it is all fairly theoretical, and only ever going to be (even partially) relevant when you get right to the limits - by that, I don't mean a sudden stab on the brakes in an emergency, but a sustained set of applications over a lengthy period (track use).

For general use (standard road use), they are actually worse as there is less contact between pad and disk.

However, as there are 'air gaps' they do stay cooler for longer (marginally) - as we all remember from school lessons (????) "Energy cannot be created or distroyed, only its form will change" - in order to slow the car down, the mechanical energy needs to be converted to something else (heat, as friction on the brakes) - so if there were no heat, there would be no braking!

It is the way that the heat is dissipated which makes the difference..... not for the braking you have just done, but for the braking you may need to do next. If it 'cools' down to (say) 100 deg C before your next braking, you will be able to generate more heat, and thus energy convertion, than if you started with brakes at 150 deg C - over the same time scale.

Additionally, when you apply the brakes there is a microscopic layer of 'gas' generated between the pad and disc (actually more of a 'vapour', but the theory is the same!), and this gas is extremely hot. More importantly, it reduces the contact between pad and disc.

If it were over the entire pad area there would be no braking effort, but it does 'collect' in tiny pockets between the pad and disc surface.

The grooves/dimples help to dissipate the trapped gas and thus increase contact between the pad/disc.

TBH, I have used grooved/dimpled discs and flat discs, and never noticed any difference - apart from the looks and the price! (Road and track use).
Dave

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go on - click this link - you know you want to!
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Re: The cheapest way to upgrade the brakes.

Postby lotusles » Sat 07.11.2015, 20:52

Thanks guys, so my next question:
For general road use (and the occasional squirt) with standard discs, what are the best pads?

The pads fitted appear to brand new but green, they work, but only when used excessively to generate some heat. It is possible they are so new they have not been run in.

Many thanks
Les
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Re: The cheapest way to upgrade the brakes.

Postby rip » Sun 08.11.2015, 07:36

It sounds like you have EBC Greenstuff. These have a reputation of being poor from cold, but there are several developments to the compound, some better than others for cold performance. Unfortunately, EBC do not mark these developments with a version number so you can't just say 'version 7 was poor, but 8 was an improvement'. EBC don't do themselves any favours in this respect. Their Redstuff series are supposed to be an improvement from cold. They do a ceramic variant of these which is supposed to be good.

Several owners on here have been very impressed with Pagid Blue RS 4.2. These are expensive but apparently bite very well when hot & cold.
Better pads will generate more heat & OEM discs will warp after 2-3 years of use so the grippier the pads, the shorter this time will be. You will feel warped disks as steering shake during braking, so be prepared to replace them because they are warped, bot worn.
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Re: The cheapest way to upgrade the brakes.

Postby lotusflasherman » Mon 09.11.2015, 20:56

rip wrote:The theory is that the grooves scrape the glaze from the pads. There is just as much scepticism as support for this.

They will not increase the force on your pads.
They are the same diameter so this will provide no improvement in braking torque either.
Is the material the same? Probably. If it is, then no improvement there.
Heat dissipation will only be marginally improved.

:agree:
I cut angled grooves in OE rear discs on No 2 Elan to try to improve rear brakes and handbrake for MOT. It works in that it gives the rust somewhere to get out from under the pads, MOT Centre noted improvement in Rear brakes & handbrake but with hood down I can hear an annoying ' tic tic tic tic tic tic' as the pads pass over the slots.

No 3 Elan is all OE and I clean rust off all discs with flap wheel on angle grinder if not used recently and brakes are fine, sails through MOT - much better than spotted & grooved discs with greenstuff pads on No 2 Elan, which are so BAD when cold.
Phil

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Re: The cheapest way to upgrade the brakes.

Postby danbrown100 » Tue 10.11.2015, 17:59

Having got hold of the replacement brake master cylinder, does anyone have instructions for removing one from a LHD Federal spec car?

I'm keen to have better brakes!

Thanks

Dan
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Re: The cheapest way to upgrade the brakes.

Postby Brit-Car-Nut » Tue 10.11.2015, 21:10

Which "replacement" BMC are you referring to? There are several suggestions in various threads and the WIKI.

The FED car uses a different BMC from the UK / RHD versions.

You will find that there is a fitting for an extra brake line. Also, if you used the suggested replacement mentioned in the WIKI, you will have TWO 10mm threaded brake line ports and TWO 18mm ports that are designed to have brake check valves threaded into them. Without custom adapters, that BMC is not useful. I believe all 3 fittings on the FED BMC are 10mm while the RHD/UK version are TWO at 10mm and TWO at 12mm?

Installation instructions are in the SERVICE MANUAL. You just have to translate it to LHD (move to the other side of the car) and the different line issues. You will also find your clutch cable threaded between the reservoir and body of the BMC which requires draining the fluid and removing the reservoir to free up the cable and then later, putting the BMC back without the reservoir and inserting the clutch cable before installing the reservoir.
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Re: The cheapest way to upgrade the brakes.

Postby danbrown100 » Wed 11.11.2015, 16:15

I got the Delphi LM50014 - I will confirm the port thread sizes.

Thanks for the other advice - I will read up the Service Manual and in Wiki.

Cheers,

Dan
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Re: The cheapest way to upgrade the brakes.

Postby Brit-Car-Nut » Wed 11.11.2015, 22:27

The Delphi LM50014 is the 20mm (13/16") version with 4 ports. The two nearest the booster are 10m x 1.0mm and the two nearest the front bumper are 12mm x 1.0mm. For LH drive / Fed car, you will need to get a line plug that is 12mm x 1.0mm.

If anyone is looking for the 22mm (7/8") STANDARD SIZE replacement BMC, the part number is Delphi LM50087. This also has the same 4 line ports like the RH drive version so for the LHD cars, the extra 12mm port will need to be plugged.
Last edited by Brit-Car-Nut on Thu 12.11.2015, 01:34, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The cheapest way to upgrade the brakes.

Postby epipete » Wed 11.11.2015, 23:50

Para 1 you quote: "The Delphi LM50014 is the 20mm (13/16")"

Para 2 you quote: "the 22mm (7/8") STANDARD SIZE replacement BMC, the part number is Delphi LM50014"

I've just awoken after a bad dream so it might be why, but I'm confused, the quoted Pt No is the same!
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