Elan BBK comparison, kits lack important specs

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Re: Elan BBK comparison, kits lack important specs

Postby Artaban » Tue 14.03.2017, 21:56

Is there an emoji for Waffly Bollocks? I think one is needed.
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Re: Elan BBK comparison, kits lack important specs

Postby isuzuowner » Tue 14.03.2017, 22:43

dapinky wrote:I think you'll find that Switzerland and Sweden are not the same place :?

If you want to spend some time reading instead of writing, may i suggest you look at some of the discussions in these threads (and there are quite a few others if you can be bothered to use the search function):-
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=17770&p=232885&hilit=brake+efficiency#p232770
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=24765&hilit=brake+efficiency
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=23606&p=297334&hilit=brake+efficiency#p297334
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=22545&p=284159&hilit=brake+efficiency#p284154
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=20813&p=264458&hilit=brake+efficiency#p264268


If citing the incorrect country name is the first thing you want to bring up, and everything else you have to discuss is of lesser importance, that does not bode well for the strength of your position. Based on your characterization of my information being so poorly researched, I'm not supposed to even know about the guy in Switzerland.

I'm looking at the links provided, and there are some rolling road braking test results to wade through. Looks like ~250kgf for the stock fronts and 300kgf for Wilwoods of unspecified piston diameter (another cites 266kgf for the Wilwoods). But the nest Wilwoods are netting a 20% increase in braking force? That does not sound right. That's less than even the 1.38 inch piston calipers with .4 cf pads should be producing.

No kgf results for Hi-Spec or PNM, the ones without any specific details.
Searched the forum, no luck. Tried google, no luck:
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22hi-s ... 80&bih=555
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22pnm% ... 80&bih=555

By the way, to the comment "that's why we have MOT": Rolling road does not test how the car acts while decelerating, only the ability of the caliper and rotor to decelerate the roller. The test is to meet or exceed the minimum, and makes no rating of having too much braking force on one end of the car or the other. Make the minimum requirement on one end, and double the minimum requirement on the other, and the car will pass the rolling road test, but it may swap ends when driven in a straight line and threshold braked.

There are proportioning valve charts. Again, a band aid to fix a problem that should have been solved prior to production. And a moot point if proportioning valve has to be turned fully off to match the increase in front braking force, and if there is much increase at all, that will be the case.
Several of the people posting their MOT results specifically state that they turned their proportioning valves all the way down to pass with the Wilwood fronts. This seems to confirm that the proportioning valve is a non-issue with larger front brakes.

Lots of brake pad names with no statement of what the difference in friction coefficient is or any indication that the people discussing those names know the differences. Sort of like shopping for sand paper and the package specifically omits the grit rating.
For your own information:
EBC Greenstuff cf: .47
EBC Redstuff cf: .39-.44
EBC Yellowstuff cf: .41-.59
Ferodo DS2500 cf: .40-.43
Ferodo DS3000 cf: .42-.52
Mintex 1155 cf: .44
Mintex 1144 cf: .44-46


I ran searches again for Hi-Spec and PNM brake caliper piston diameter. The most recent entry that comes up is from Bob Brown around 2011. I am under the impression that he left the forum before PNM introduced their kit and possibly also before the Hi-Spec kit was introduced. I take that to mean he is citing only the range calipers available, and not what they put in their kit for the Elan, that were introduced after he left.
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Re: Elan BBK comparison, kits lack important specs

Postby clemo » Tue 14.03.2017, 23:04

isuzuowner I have read through the Water pump , alternator and now this brakes thread .

I can see that you registered website shows you have knowledge of the Isuzu brand .

I also approved your membership of this site and can hover my finger over the mute button for 7 days or permanently ( as can any other mod)

I don't think you are trolling as you seem far to technical for that . However i would ask you to put the same amount of technical effort into playing nicely .
I applaud your enthusiasm but your online etiquette seems to be rubbing some up the wrong way .

We at LEC have been around long enough and seen many people come and go . There is a pattern and you are falling into it . Which is a shame . It would be nice if you stayed around . Pinky has be very polite . I am not . You are sailing very close to the wind.
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Re: Elan BBK comparison, kits lack important specs

Postby dapinky » Tue 14.03.2017, 23:13

I merely made comments in the chronological order you posted, with no importance to be ellicited from the order.

It wasn't me who mentioned "that's why we have an MOT test", so why ask me about it?

I am fully aware of the published coefficients of friction of various brake materials from different manufacturers, but not quite sure how they are relevant to your points - it is easy to quote things from the interweb, but lists of numbers are pretty useless.

You mention PNM, Hi-Spec and BB kits - and say that you can only find information on one of them......... perhaps because they are all the same (callipers manufactured by Hi-Spec, and sold by PNM under their own name.... the rest of the hardware developed by Bob and utilised in the 'kits'.)

As for your suggestion that proportioning valves are a 'band aid' to cover poor design/selection of components..... well, that means that every manufacturer in the world makes poor choices. You show me ANY car (production) which doesn't use some sort of pressure proportioning system (usually part of the ABS manifold or master cylinder on modern vehicles) and I'd be surprised!

They are fitted to allow a 'standard' shelf part to be used for multiple applications, otherwise every vehicle would have individually made components, even down to different variants of the same car to allow for the extra weight of the original equipment... that would be absurd. It is only to get the bias/split to fall into an acceptable range for expected/intended use.

Anyway, i'm bored now, and shall give up with this pointless diatribe - it is impossible to have a meaningful discussion with someone who either chooses to not listen, or who feels that by regurgitating 'facts' from the interweb, they must be right....after all, we all know that 86.7% of statistics found on the internet are purely inserted to make a point appear valid.
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Re: Elan BBK comparison, kits lack important specs

Postby Elanlover » Tue 14.03.2017, 23:56

dapinky wrote: ....after all, we all know that 86.7% of statistics found on the internet are purely inserted to make a point appear valid.


Now that's a stat I believe in!
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Re: Elan BBK comparison, kits lack important specs

Postby Fredjohn » Wed 15.03.2017, 00:30

Elanlover wrote:
dapinky wrote: ....after all, we all know that 86.7% of statistics found on the internet are purely inserted to make a point appear valid.


Now that's a stat I believe in!


Sorry but that is rubbish :!: :!: From my experience and wide interweb reading, it's 88.9%
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Re: Elan BBK comparison, kits lack important specs

Postby Giniw » Wed 15.03.2017, 00:47

lol

dapinky wrote:There is no simple coefficient of multiplication
Yes, and even the different valves stages alone make it impossible to give a single coefficient as it's not linear. And I don't see why it would be stupid to want a non linear bias ^^
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Re: Elan BBK comparison, kits lack important specs

Postby Dave Eds » Wed 15.03.2017, 01:05

clemo wrote: and can hover my finger over the mute button for 7 days or permanently ( as can any other mod)



But this one isn't renowned for having your patience Clemo. I prefer the "bollox" approach so may just hit the button anyway..........
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Re: Elan BBK comparison, kits lack important specs

Postby Simon_P » Wed 15.03.2017, 01:13

isuzuowner wrote:A bias valve on a production car is typically a sign of someone in the engineering department not picking the right parts, discovering the error too late, and scrambling to fix that problem too close to the production date.
How else would you propose to get 80% less braking on the rear? bicycle disks?
This is quite a light car with the light bits over the rear wheels and the heavy bits over the front wheels.
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Re: Elan BBK comparison, kits lack important specs

Postby alan e » Wed 15.03.2017, 01:16

Dave Eds wrote:
clemo wrote: and can hover my finger over the mute button for 7 days or permanently ( as can any other mod)



But this one isn't renowned for having your patience Clemo. I prefer the "bollox" approach so may just hit the button anyway..........


Oh go on do it :poke:
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Re: Elan BBK comparison, kits lack important specs

Postby Giniw » Wed 15.03.2017, 01:23

Simon_P wrote:
isuzuowner wrote:A bias valve on a production car is typically a sign of someone in the engineering department not picking the right parts, discovering the error too late, and scrambling to fix that problem too close to the production date.
How else would you propose to get 80% less braking on the rear?
Tiny pistons would probably do the trick but it might not be standard off the shelf. And as I said, as we know the Elan has a non constant bias.
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Re: Elan BBK comparison, kits lack important specs

Postby GeoffSmith » Wed 15.03.2017, 14:45

Artaban wrote:Is there an emoji for Waffly Bollocks? I think one is needed.

I've got one for whiffy bollecks if that helps...
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Re: Elan BBK comparison, kits lack important specs

Postby AnonImouse » Wed 15.03.2017, 14:46

Simon_P wrote:
isuzuowner wrote:A bias valve on a production car is typically a sign of someone in the engineering department not picking the right parts, discovering the error too late, and scrambling to fix that problem too close to the production date.
How else would you propose to get 80% less braking on the rear? bicycle disks?
This is quite a light car with the light bits over the rear wheels and the heavy bits over the front wheels.

Drum brakes. 'tis the future I tell you.
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Re: Elan BBK comparison, kits lack important specs

Postby Giniw » Wed 15.03.2017, 16:17

Drums brakes aren't that bad, it's just that the heat dissipates less. Which is a problem indeed, but it's not a lack of braking power.
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Re: Elan BBK comparison, kits lack important specs

Postby rip » Wed 15.03.2017, 16:49

Giniw wrote:Drums brakes aren't that bad, it's just that the heat dissipates less. Which is a problem indeed, but it's not a lack of braking power.

Which means they would still be too efficient for the rear of an Elan. The lack of weight in the back would cause them to lock under heavy braking, which is what the proportioning valves are there to prevent.

As for the engineering department not knowing what they are doing...this is Lotus, where most other manufacturers send their cars to get sorted.
The same company who overspend on the engineering budget then skimp on other things like a decent roof...which subsequently leaks.
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Re: Elan BBK comparison, kits lack important specs

Postby muley » Wed 15.03.2017, 22:34

Just FYI

NZ vehicle standards

"(a) in the case of a modified production low volume vehicle which has
attained an increase in engine power output from the original vehicle
manufacturer’s specifications of between 20% and 50%, or have any
modifications to the service brake system, or have any modifications
which result in a change in or relocation of weight or centre of
gravity:
(i) 3 consecutive cycles from 100 kph to standstill each at an
average deceleration of not less than 0.65g; and
(ii) within a total time of 2 minutes from the start of the first
cycle to the completion of the third cycle;"

Can't wait to see if my Elan is compliant.

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Re: Elan BBK comparison, kits lack important specs

Postby clemo » Wed 15.03.2017, 22:43

AnonImouse wrote:Drum brakes. 'tis the future I tell you.


Arn't you a bit to old for Drum & Bass ..
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Re: Elan BBK comparison, kits lack important specs

Postby Giniw » Wed 15.03.2017, 23:03

muley wrote:or have any modifications
which result in a change in or relocation of weight or centre of
gravity
You mean one can't seat in the driver seat?! :-D
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Re: Elan BBK comparison, kits lack important specs

Postby GeoffSmith » Wed 15.03.2017, 23:12

muley wrote:Just FYI

NZ vehicle standards

He said Swedeland you silly old fool.
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Re: Elan BBK comparison, kits lack important specs

Postby dapinky » Thu 16.03.2017, 00:13

muley wrote:Can't wait to see if my Elan is compliant.
Jim


(1) It doesn't matter, ya daft git - the car aint in NZ
(2) It'll do those deceleration figures anyway (but it will need to be tested on a Tapley Meter (or whatever the new version of it is called!) to allow for weight distribution - it can't be done on brake rollers).
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