Drive Shaft for S2

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Drive Shaft for S2

Postby abmunro » Tue 29.10.2013, 16:33

Is there a drive shaft replacement for S2

Cheers

Tony
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Re: Drive Shaft for S2

Postby Enright » Wed 30.10.2013, 10:17

I'm sure they didn't change them from SE Tony. Lotus were selling them off on the aftersales list at about £95 per side a few years back, which were well worth getting as they came as a complete sealed assembly with all boots and CV joints. They dont use standard CV grease - instead it's a sort of thick oil so if you get a split boot it's a right git of a job because the whole lot needs to be re-assembled vertically to do it properly.
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Re: Drive Shaft for S2

Postby Brit-Car-Nut » Wed 30.10.2013, 10:28

Unfortunately, the RH side is obsolete and the LH side is no longer on the Aftersales list. Current Lotus price is £348.30.

I am not aware of any other car using the same drive shafts, so to my knowledge, no interchange exists.
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Re: Drive Shaft for S2

Postby abmunro » Wed 30.10.2013, 10:35

Neil thanks for info

Do they come from any donor vehicles?

Tony
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Re: Drive Shaft for S2

Postby Enright » Wed 30.10.2013, 14:11

I believe that the Vauxhall Astras and Novas of that period used similar if not the same CV joints, because they had the same hubs, bearings and the castings that the bearings pressed into. I'm not surprised if they've all been sold, because at the old price they were an absolute steal (not quite so much of one now)!
I'm pretty sure I still have one in it's original box in my garage, which would have a manufacturer's name and their part number on it. I'll try to remember to have a look after work, and post the results here.
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Re: Drive Shaft for S2

Postby abmunro » Wed 30.10.2013, 15:08

Thanks Neil!!!
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Re: Drive Shaft for S2

Postby Enright » Fri 01.11.2013, 00:35

Right, found the box.
The original manufacturer was GKN Hardy Spicer Drive Line, and there's a part number on the box which is DL 1833 and 400300 03/06
That may provide a few clues...
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Re: Drive Shaft for S2

Postby Simon_P » Fri 01.11.2013, 01:27

Enright wrote:That may provide a few clues...

GKN will tell you to talk to Lotus, or GKN Service, who will probably tell you to talk to Lotus also.

abmunro wrote:Do they come from any donor vehicles?

No.
Brit-Car-Nut wrote:I am not aware of any other car using the same drive shafts, so to my knowledge, no interchange exists.
Yes, they are unique. The shafts are unique, but the internal components will be standard to other GKN products. Unfortunately that means that the joints are unique also.

Enright wrote:They dont use standard CV grease - instead it's a sort of thick oil

They don't use standard grease, they have it made to their own spec. No it is grease if it is oily the oil has come out of solution..... but then grease is oil and soap.
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Re: Drive Shaft for S2

Postby Brit-Car-Nut » Fri 01.11.2013, 02:57

From what I was told by Axles Unlimited (a well recommended local service shop) the actual joints are from two different designs: the inner one is from a design used by Subaru - probably a Metric design and the outer one is from a Ford which could be Imperial. I believe the actual joint yokes are different: one is a triangle and the other is a cross? I will have to look at a drive shaft tomorrow.

Regardless replacement joints are available as are high quality boots with either strap type clips or snap-lock clips for people that don't have the tool for winding up the strap type.
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Re: Drive Shaft for S2

Postby Enright » Fri 01.11.2013, 13:02

OK, a couple of questions to different people:

Tony, have you got a driveshaft or CV joint problem with your blue Elan? If so, can you give us some more details: is it a split boot or a clicking joint, or something else? It may make a difference as to which direction we investigate next (if any).

SimonP: have you been in this situation already and earlier investigation has led you to such definite answers? I'm a bit surprised if they wouldn't even TRY to be helpful, as in my experience people in the auto industry are interested in nice cars. Therefore they are usually keen to help people who are prepared to do a bit of legwork to save themselves some money, even if it's only by providing some more info.

I put "hardy spicer driveline" into Yahoo, and 4th result down looked instantly very promising:
http://hgv-spares.co.uk/part0199.htm
Based in Gloucester, so reasonably local. Is that who you approached?

Thing is, I just couldn't understand why Lotus, being owned by GM at the time, would use a GM sourced powerplant and Vauxhall hubs and brakes, but then go to their arch rivals Ford for CV joints. And what's Subaru doing in the mix?!? It just doesn't make sense. Their purchasing dept would have wanted to keep things as simple and standard as possible when setting up the project to save themselves as much cost as they could. Why go to the expense (and questionable reliability) of specially designed parts if you can get away with cheap, tried and trusted, off-the-shelf ones?

Re the actual parts: If the worst came to the worst and the only useable bits were the shafts themselves, then surely the only important bit is the dimensions of the splines and any grooves for locking rings that secure the CV joints at the ends. In which case I agree with BCN that replacement joints MUST be available. A knackered CV gaiter or even a clicky joint shouldn't end up costing you £400 per side to sort out!

I used to know someone at Hethel who was a designer when the Elan was built, and who was working in parts/technical sales not too long ago. If we need to get further with this and none of the other avenues work, I'm sure he wouldn't mind a call to pick his brains a bit.
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Re: Drive Shaft for S2

Postby Brit-Car-Nut » Fri 01.11.2013, 13:29

Neil: The gearbox/final drive is from Isuzu and has Isuzu sourced splines and yoke. The yoke is common in the US as they were also used in the Subaru "station wagon" so that is what I was quoted. The outer end is also a common arrangement that is most common in a Ford (in the US). Axles Unlimited also offer a high performance/uprated set of yokes and bearings that I know Steve Matthews purchased when he sent his shafts in for a rebuild since he was trashing axles at the track. At last report he was pleased with the results.

The only difference between the lh and rh axles on the M100 is the length so, had the remaining shafts still been on the Aftersales list, one of those could be used to rebuild the other side. True, the inner joint assembly is different, but the outers will interchange and the "guts" of the inners are the same. It is a shame they raised the price, but Lotus needs some cash flow on the positive side too.

If Tony needs any of of the complete joints, here is more bad news from Lotus:

Outboard Joint Assy: A100R6003S Obsolete
Inboard Joint Assy, LH: A100R6007S £278.46
Inboard Joint Assy, RH: A100R6006S £278.46

I have a few used shafts and several more partial shafts to steal parts from, so if a housing is needed, I can probably help but a source in the UK would probably be better.

Tony: What exactly do you need?
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Re: Drive Shaft for S2

Postby GeoffSmith » Fri 01.11.2013, 13:31

HGV = ??? :twisted:

I think Hardy-Spicer came up with the UJ (which is why they're sometimes called Hardy-Spicer joints :lol: ) then moved onto CVJs and probably supply most UK car manufacturers. I think the story went that they used their (already designed so 'off the shelf') Subaru and Ford joints to meed Lotus' requirements.
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Re: Drive Shaft for S2

Postby abmunro » Fri 01.11.2013, 14:11

Neil

The problem is with the Green S2 which I have now sold to Colin.

I was just trying to see if I could help locate a new part.

I'm not exactly sure what is wrong with current part.
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Re: Drive Shaft for S2

Postby Simon_P » Fri 01.11.2013, 22:31

Brit-Car-Nut wrote:From what I was told by Axles Unlimited (a well recommended local service shop) the actual joints are from two different designs: the inner one is from a design used by Subaru - probably a Metric design and the outer one is from a Ford which could be Imperial. I believe the actual joint yokes are different: one is a triangle and the other is a cross? I will have to look at a drive shaft tomorrow.

Both of the inner joints are the same design. The outer joints are a standard design machined to fit the Lotus hub, and the inner spline, to fit the Lotus shaft if you could find one that fits the same hub and the same shaft spline it might work.
viewtopic.php?f=46&t=7140&hilit

Enright wrote:SimonP: have you been in this situation already and earlier investigation has led you to such definite answers? I'm a bit surprised if they wouldn't even TRY to be helpful, as in my experience people in the auto industry are interested in nice cars. Therefore they are usually keen to help people who are prepared to do a bit of legwork to save themselves some money, even if it's only by providing some more info.

If you want to order about 20 thousand car sets then they would be the people to talk to, a few hundred sets then GKN service might help, one-offs GKN motorsport - They are likely to refer you to Lotus as Lotus are their customer. GKN are a large company they deal with small companies like lotus because "people in the auto industry are interested in nice cars."

"
GeoffSmith wrote:I think Hardy-Spicer came up with the UJ (which is why they're sometimes called Hardy-Spicer joints ) then moved onto CVJs.

No, Mr Hooke came up with the UJ, hardy Spicer came-up with the application. They did invent the Hardy disc as used in propshafts. Rzeppa invented the CV joint, Hardy Spicer developed the application for the Mini.

GeoffSmith wrote:and probably supply most UK car manufacturers.

... and supply 40% of the word market. GKN that is.

GeoffSmith wrote:I think the story went that they used their (already designed so 'off the shelf') Subaru and Ford joints to meed Lotus' requirements.

Pretty much the same for all OEM's

Getting a driveshaft specialist to rebuild the ones you have is the best option.
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Re: Drive Shaft for S2

Postby Simon_P » Fri 01.11.2013, 23:08

Enright wrote:I put "hardy spicer driveline" into Yahoo, and 4th result down looked instantly very promising:

That is similar to putting "Hoover" in to a search and finding a place that sells Vacuum Cleaners.

Enright wrote:Thing is, I just couldn't understand why Lotus, being owned by GM at the time, would use a GM sourced powerplant and Vauxhall hubs and brakes, but then go to their arch rivals Ford for CV joints.

They didn't they went to GKN whose business is making driveshafts for the Likes of Ford, Nissan, Toyota....

Enright wrote:Their purchasing dept would have wanted to keep things as simple and standard as possible when setting up the project to save themselves as much cost as they could. Why go to the expense (and questionable reliability) of specially designed parts if you can get away with cheap, tried and trusted, off-the-shelf ones?

No. their purchasing department would have gone to the world leader in driveshaft manufacturing and said " look we've got this new front wheel drive sportscar (everyone said it couldn't be done) with a really novel front suspension arrangement. The gearbox is off an Isuzu and the hubs are off an Astra. Can you make something that will fit, has no torque steer, is really cheap... and by the way we are going to make loads of them and we promise to pay our bills.

Just to put all of the comments into perspective our sum total of 4000 cars represents about 8 days production for one assembly cell at GKN.
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