Driveshaft intermediate bearing

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Re: Driveshaft intermediate bearing

Postby Simon_P » Mon 09.10.2017, 21:36

There are 2 rubber lip (oil/dust) seals one either side of the bearing both are covered by dust shields they keep the grease for the splines in place and moisture out. They are different sizes.

The bearing is. 6206 2rs. Don't buy a cheap one it has to work hard.

If I recall correctly the shaft is a press fit in the bearing - No circlip, but the bearing is retained by a circlip in the housing.
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Re: Driveshaft intermediate bearing

Postby Bern » Mon 09.10.2017, 22:03

Giniw - Yes, sorry, not really an oil seal, as Simon says (!) it's more of a rubber dust seal.

Simon - I think I see what you mean now. When I get the bearing off the shaft there will be another clip under both a rubber and metal dust seal.

Cheers,

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Re: Driveshaft intermediate bearing

Postby Giniw » Mon 09.10.2017, 23:44

Bern wrote:
DSC_0810.JPG


Should there be a clip between the bearing and the splines?

DSC_0809.JPG

I was watching again my video (viewtopic.php?f=48&t=26163#p333629) and your pictures (and http://www.deroure.com/images/diagrams/23/47_15a.gif) and I wonder how there can be so much play between my (our) tulips and the shaft. I may be wrong but I don't think the bearing would do that, the play looks like it's between the shaft and the tulip. I am starting to wonder if it's possible i's just that the tulip is not pushed enough on the shaft, so the square circlips is not engaged properly in its groove.
If the culprit was the bearing, shouldn't the intermediate shaft move relative to the "intermediate shaft support"? (not sure what it's called ^^)

(I am not in front of the car right now, it's just what I am thinking after viewing the videos/pictures again, I may be totally wrong)
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Re: Driveshaft intermediate bearing

Postby Brit-Car-Nut » Tue 10.10.2017, 00:09

Giniw wrote:I was watching again my video (http://forum.lotuselancentral.com/viewt ... 63#p333629) and your pictures (and http://www.deroure.com/images/diagrams/23/47_15a.gif) and I wonder how there can be so much play between my (our) tulips and the shaft. I may be wrong but I don't think the bearing would do that, the play looks like it's between the shaft and the tulip. I am starting to wonder if it's possible it's just that the tulip is not pushed enough on the shaft, so the square circlips is not engaged properly in its groove.
If the culprit was the bearing, shouldn't the intermediate shaft move relative to the "intermediate shaft support"? (not sure what it's called ^^)

(I am not in front of the car right now, it's just what I am thinking after viewing the videos/pictures again, I may be totally wrong)

The driveshaft inner end circlips (I know that one driveshaft has the round ring and the intermediate shaft has the square ring) are designed to allow the shaft to go completely through the spider gear and expand on the other side thus keeping the shaft fully seated in the gear.

Basically, the shafts have to be able to slide in and out (but not beyond the inside edge) of the spider gears to allow for theoretical driveshaft length changes as the geometry varies during driving - much like the slider portion on a regular rear wheel drive shaft.

I have a few off side inner "bells" that where the CV joint lives, shows a LOT more wear than others. Also, vibration can come from a CV joint being "tight" and not allowing "full pivot" as the geometry varies - similar to when a RWD U-joint seizes up instead of falling apart.

Are you sure you should be looking for slop and not tightness / restricted motion?
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Re: Driveshaft intermediate bearing

Postby Bern » Tue 10.10.2017, 09:27

I was watching again my video (viewtopic.php?f=48&t=26163#p333629) and your pictures (and http://www.deroure.com/images/diagrams/23/47_15a.gif) and I wonder how there can be so much play between my (our) tulips and the shaft. I may be wrong but I don't think the bearing would do that, the play looks like it's between the shaft and the tulip. I am starting to wonder if it's possible i's just that the tulip is not pushed enough on the shaft, so the square circlips is not engaged properly in its groove.
If the culprit was the bearing, shouldn't the intermediate shaft move relative to the "intermediate shaft support"? (not sure what it's called ^^)


You are quite right, I didn't suspect the bearing and I too thought that the tulip was not pushed fully on to the shaft. However it definitely was fully on the shaft and the only thing I can find wrong is the play in the bearing. I am cleaning and re-greasing the joints on both end of the shafts in case there was any stifness (though I hadn't considered that a tight CV joint might cause the vibration (thanks John)). The oil seal next to the bearing is very worn around the inner edge (there were bits of it around the bearing) which suggests that the bearing wasn't holding the shaft steady.

When (or if) it's all back together I'll let you know if there is any improvement.

Cheers,

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Re: Driveshaft intermediate bearing

Postby Giniw » Tue 10.10.2017, 12:49

Thanks, interesting point about that worn seal!

Brit-Car-Nut wrote:The driveshaft inner end circlips (I know that one driveshaft has the round ring and the intermediate shaft has the square ring) are designed to allow the shaft to go completely through the spider gear and expand on the other side thus keeping the shaft fully seated in the gear.
Interesting, I didn't know that. I thought only the tripod in the tulip would translate.

Are you sure you should be looking for slop and not tightness / restricted motion?
Oh I am not sure of anything yet, but I will definitely check that nothing is tight when I remove the main shaft. Thank you for the idea!
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Re: Driveshaft intermediate bearing

Postby Bern » Sat 14.10.2017, 20:18

It's all back together now, and it definitely feels much better to drive. I haven't been very far yet, on Monday I'll do a 100 mile trip and report on that.

Giniw - the rubber seal wasn't actually worn away as I initially thought - it was just covered in dry grease that gave the impression that it was damaged - it cleaned up nicely. With the new bearing on the shaft and the driveshaft in place the "play" in the tulip appears to be the same as before (which was the same as your video). However something I have done has made a difference!

Somebody had put the wrong nut on the top ball joint and ruined the thread, so it's got a new one of those, and I've also done the ignition timing (again!!). And sponged lots of water out of the footwells. The drivers seat belt doesn't retract fully, and the passenger belt is jammed!!

Cheers,

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Re: Driveshaft intermediate bearing

Postby Bern » Mon 16.10.2017, 20:50

I can safely report that the fixes I've carried out have made a huge difference. I drove on all sorts of roads today, M5, A46 across the Cotswolds and down really tiny muddy country lanes (and even through a ford!). There's far less bump steer and wandering, and no vibrations. Before it also felt "floaty" when accelerating, now gone.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's perfect, i think I'll need a new right hand driveshaft before I can say that!

But I'm finally starting to see the appeal of these Elans :-)
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Re: Driveshaft intermediate bearing

Postby Giniw » Tue 17.10.2017, 12:56

Bern wrote:(and even through a ford!)
For a second I thought you drove through a Ford!! :lol:
(I didn't know what a ford is ^^)

Thank you very much for the follow up! :-)


As for the bearing, I think I am going to order an SKF
https://www.123roulement.com/roulement-6206-2RS-SKF.php
(http://wikilec.com/view/Jackshaft)
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Re: Driveshaft intermediate bearing

Postby Bern » Tue 17.10.2017, 13:30

A ford is where the road goes through a river (there is no bridge). Though in this case it wasn't much of a river, more a stream!

I bought: SKF Bearing

which looks to be the same as the one you have listed.

Don't forget that you'll lose some oil when you remove the intermediate shaft. I drained it all out and replaced it. I found it was easier to re-fill if I removed the intake hose (wing to intake), and then moved the expansion tank (no need to remove the hoses just undo the 10mm bolt and the (in my case useless) strap. I also found it easier to undo the bolt that clamps the speedo cable from the left hand wheel arch (with the wheel removed), using a 10mm flexible head ratchet spanner.

Enjoy!!
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Re: Driveshaft intermediate bearing

Postby Giniw » Tue 17.10.2017, 13:49

^^

Yes I have already flushed my gearbox once ^^
I haven't tried to access the speedometer bolt through the wheel arch tough, I will have that in mind when I do that :-)
Thanks a lot!
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Re: Driveshaft intermediate bearing

Postby Simon_P » Wed 18.10.2017, 05:24

Bern wrote:which looks to be the same as the one you have listed.

Not quite - The bearing you have has C3 clearance and is consequently more expensive. C3 is increased clearance which means that it will have more play.
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Re: Driveshaft intermediate bearing

Postby Bern » Wed 18.10.2017, 07:46

That's interesting, do you think it would be noticeable?

There was some play in the new bearing when fitted to the shaft, but a lot less than the old one. Do you think I should change it for one with less clearance?

Cheers,

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Re: Driveshaft intermediate bearing

Postby Giniw » Wed 18.10.2017, 13:17

Simon > Interesting, do you have a URL which explains the differences?
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Re: Driveshaft intermediate bearing

Postby Simon_P » Wed 18.10.2017, 14:51

No, but it is quite straightforward.

Normal bearings usually by default are not marked, so if it isn't mentioned you can usually assume it is a normal clearance bearing

Some bearings get hot in use and the heat causes the metal to expand and reduce the clearance, so to compensate they are made with increased radial clearance to start with, so that when they are at operating temperature the clearance is correct these are C3, C4, C5. There is also a C2 with reduced clearance.

Because 6206 is a common size the C3 is readily available.

Bearing nomenclature was mostly created by Hoffmann Bearings in the UK who used a system of circles to denote clearance ooo being C3 (oo being normal hence the error that I have now edited!)
Last edited by Simon_P on Wed 18.10.2017, 15:17, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Driveshaft intermediate bearing

Postby Giniw » Wed 18.10.2017, 15:01

OK thank you!
So, which one should we prefer then? :-D
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Re: Driveshaft intermediate bearing

Postby Bern » Wed 18.10.2017, 15:18

Had I known I'd have gone for the C2!

What is C1??
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Re: Driveshaft intermediate bearing

Postby Simon_P » Wed 18.10.2017, 15:32

I believe the original bearing was with normal clearance, so 6206 2RS
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Re: Driveshaft intermediate bearing

Postby Simon_P » Wed 18.10.2017, 15:55

Bern wrote:Had I known I'd have gone for the C2!

What is C1??


I've edited my post above having looked it up and seen my error! so to avoid confusion I won't answer your question directly.

There is a standard bearing clearance less than normal clearance, but you are unlikely to be able to buy one off the shelf and in all likelihood it would run hot and fail early.

The difference is only a few microns but due to " small angle theory" a small increase in radial clearance will result in greater play and a reduction in clearance will have little reduction in play.
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Re: Driveshaft intermediate bearing

Postby Bern » Wed 18.10.2017, 17:04

Thanks Simon, so C3 is the standard, and accepted if it's not quoted?
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