CV Gaiters

Drivetrain problems

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Re: CV Gaiters

Postby dapinky » Tue 29.03.2016, 19:48

madbilly wrote:Slightly off-topic, all the shims were on the front side of the ball-joint, and the camber cams (old car) on each side were not in exactly the same positions. Odd?


The shims all being on one side of the top balljoint isn't unusual (well, mine are all at the front, anyway!) - ideally, a full wheel allignment after the whole thing has been done is recommended, but if you don't want to go to the expense of that, just put them back as they came off.

I set mine up 'properly' (using the proper gauges anyway), and it needed all shims at the front to set the castor as per the Workshop Manual, but it is designed so that each car will be individually set from the factory.

The camber plates should be the same at the front and rear of each side of the car, but may well be different from nearside to offside - again, I ended up making some new ones out of 3mm stainless steel plate to get it right.
Dave

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Re: CV Gaiters

Postby madbilly » Sun 03.04.2016, 21:23

Thanks for the reassurance Dave. I'll put it back together as it was and take it for a wheel alignment when I have chance.

So, I got the ball joint apart but now I'm stuck with the CV joint, it won't come off the driveshaft. I've tried a mallet and hammering a brass drift on the inner bearing race but it won't budge. I've put a vice round the driveshaft on the engine side of the strut to brace against and stop the driveshaft coming out of the gearbox, and used a screwdriver to raise the shaft so the CV joint is clear of the lower ball-joint. I haven't tried the lever-method from wikiLEC yet because I haven't quite worked out what to lever against, and I'm a bit nervous of pulling the driveshaft out of the gearbox, although in the absence of any other ideas I will try this before I resort to removing the driveshaft from the car.

Here's a couple of photos showing context and detail. Can anyone confirm I've correctly understood the inner bearing race which the manual says to use brass drift and a hammer against?
CV joint work area small.jpg

CV joint small.jpg


Any thoughts, suggestions, ideas or urgent advice because I've done something terrible?!

A few questions about parts and refitting:
  • For the nuts and bolts is there anything specific I need to look for or is it sufficient to follow the part description (e.g. M8 x 70 bolt for no.20)?
  • What does the description "thin" mean for bolt 9? To me it looked the same as bolt 10.
  • Any reason to buy new castor adjustment shims if the others look like they'll be fine after a clean up?
  • Is the bolt with a cam for camber adjustment still available or is the only option to replace with shims?
  • How is kayloc different from nyloc?
  • Any idea what I should spec for mail-order of the lower ball-joint boot, or are they that common I should be able to walk into any auto-factors and they'll be able to give me a replacement?
  • Any reason I shouldn't put copper-slip on the nuts, bolts and drive-shaft huib-splines to stop them seizing again (no that the driveshaft did, in fact it was the easiest part of the job so far!)?
  • Any solvent that I should NOT use to clean the CV joint before refitting? The manual says don't use petrol and wikiLEC says use paraffin; I have an "ecofriendly white spirit substitute" I've used for cleaning paint brushes, could that cause any problems?

For the record, bolt no. 20 snapped, blowtorch heating didn't work, the head came off and the rest stayed rusted in the ball-joint. Bolt 9 came off after I'd ground half of it away and bolt 10 only came off with mole-grips. The 19mm flare nut spanner I bought was less use than the open end one because the head on the flare nut spanner was to large and the faces were concave so it was even harder to get a good fit on the nuts. Mental note for next time (and maybe useful tip for others even less experienced than me) - turning the steering wheel makes the ball-joint nuts more accessible. Unfortunately I only remembered this yesterday, had I remembered earlier I think a normal open end spanner would have worked on both with no problem.
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Re: CV Gaiters

Postby dapinky » Sun 03.04.2016, 22:34

madbilly wrote:So, I got the ball joint apart but now I'm stuck with the CV joint, it won't come off the driveshaft. I've tried a mallet and hammering a brass drift on the inner bearing race but it won't budge. I've put a vice round the driveshaft on the engine side of the strut to brace against and stop the driveshaft coming out of the gearbox, and used a screwdriver to raise the shaft so the CV joint is clear of the lower ball-joint. I haven't tried the lever-method from wikiLEC yet because I haven't quite worked out what to lever against, and I'm a bit nervous of pulling the driveshaft out of the gearbox, although in the absence of any other ideas I will try this before I resort to removing the driveshaft from the car.

Not sure what you're trying to achieve here - I've never needed to seperate the outer balljoint - the new one will stretch over the whole thing for fitting (inner balljoint is easy - just undo the metal clips and it'll slide out, and can then be seperated by removing the circlip on the end of the shaft.)

madbilly wrote:For the nuts and bolts is there anything specific I need to look for or is it sufficient to follow the part description (e.g. M8 x 70 bolt for no.20)?

As long as you use 8.8 spec High Tensile (or ~80 rating if using A4 Stainless) it is okay for most parts - but the #20 & #24 need to be higher spec bolts (10.9 grade)

madbilly wrote:What does the description "thin" mean for bolt 9? To me it looked the same as bolt 10.

It refers only to the depth of the head that the spanner goes on - I used normal ones but the theory is that a thinner one will give more clearance between the static part and the rotating part.

madbilly wrote:Any reason to buy new castor adjustment shims if the others look like they'll be fine after a clean up?

old ones can be reused without any problems

madbilly wrote:Is the bolt with a cam for camber adjustment still available or is the only option to replace with shims?

No idea - I already had the later plate adjustment system, so only needed the correct plates

madbilly wrote:How is kayloc different from nyloc?

Kaylock are a higher specification part - all metal construction, but slightly oval in shape to grip the threaded part of the bolt - they should only be used once then replaced on reassembly.

madbilly wrote:Any idea what I should spec for mail-order of the lower ball-joint boot, or are they that common I should be able to walk into any auto-factors and they'll be able to give me a replacement?

They are a common part - I got mine from ebay...... as long as the 3 dimensions are the same as OE part (or close enough!) it will do the job - small diameter, large diameter & height.

madbilly wrote:Any reason I shouldn't put copper-slip on the nuts, bolts and drive-shaft huib-splines to stop them seizing again (no that the driveshaft did, in fact it was the easiest part of the job so far!)?

if you use it, keep it off the threads and only put it on the plain area of the bolts (to keep torque settings accurate).

madbilly wrote:Any solvent that I should NOT use to clean the CV joint before refitting? The manual says don't use petrol and wikiLEC says use paraffin; I have an "ecofriendly white spirit substitute" I've used for cleaning paint brushes, could that cause any problems?

I have used all sorts in the past, but as you are just cleaning grotty grase away, I'd use paraffin (or diesel, or white spirit).
Dave

Just the one now, but this one's mine! - and it will be finished eventually.....

go on - click this link - you know you want to!
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Re: CV Gaiters

Postby madbilly » Mon 04.04.2016, 16:45

Hi Dave, you're right, I was blindly following wikiLEC and the manual without checking the instructions for fitting these J&R boots - this video on youtube shows the method quite clearly, no need to remove the CV joint!

dapinky wrote:As long as you use 8.8 spec High Tensile (or ~80 rating if using A4 Stainless) it is okay for most parts - but the #20 & #24 need to be higher spec bolts (10.9 grade)

Ah yes, I remember seeing your detailed info on this. After searching online for longer than I should have done (!) I can't find 10.9 grade equivalent stainless bolts (100 rating stainless I think), so I guess I'll just have to use zinc-plated 10.9 or 12.9 grade like you did.

Specifically Kayloc nuts seem difficult to find, so I'm going to assume that any all-metal lock-nut will be okay. I assume that class 8 steel/80 stainless will be okay for this if I can't find class 10.

Something for me to check tonight - is bolt 20 threaded all the way through the ball-joint body, i.e. is the hole in the ball-joint body threaded so the bolt holds it in place better? This would explain why it was so seized!
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Re: CV Gaiters

Postby madbilly » Mon 04.04.2016, 19:03

I just checked the no.22 nuts that came off my car and they are nyloc! I'll stil try and get all-metal ones. The no. 20 bolt has only a partial thread, but presumably most of the way along.
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Re: CV Gaiters

Postby dapinky » Mon 04.04.2016, 20:02

Billy,

the bolts through the upper wishbone aren't threaded all the way through - they just have a habbit of rusting in place!

Finding Stainless in a suitable grade is near impossible - the only way I could have done it was to get some made up in Australia - I didn't even bother to get a price as I decided it wasn't worth it when the 10.9 & 12.9 grades are easily and cheaply availlable - hovever, I have added it to my annual 'to do' list to check they aren't seizing up.

Kaylock nuts are fairly common, but TBH, I'd just as likely go with nylocks (that's what is on the later ones anyway) - the only thing i can think of is that they grip like sh*t to a blanket, so are more likely to prevent the cam bolt from rotating accidentally, and thus keep the geometery correct....

...in your case, I'd just make up 4 steel plates which fit in the recess in the wishbone, drill them centally with an 8mm hole and then stick a bolt/nylock through it.... that will give you a starting point for the full geometry setup - once the current camber is measured (which you can do yourself with a spirit level and ruler), it is a simple mathmatical formula to change the angles, every 0.5mm in or out adds or subtracts whatever angle it is (I can't remember off hand, but it's in the manual!) - thinking about it, i may even make them out of aluminium just for getting a start point, or 1mm steel, or anything else to hand - but they need to be the proper thickness for the final items to keep it rigid.

As I haven't got access to accurate drilling kit, I simply drilled 8mm holes in a sheet of stainless, then drew a box round each hole which gave the new (correct) dimensions, then cut them out.
Dave

Just the one now, but this one's mine! - and it will be finished eventually.....

go on - click this link - you know you want to!
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Re: CV Gaiters

Postby madbilly » Fri 08.04.2016, 14:57

I haven't managed to find the fine thread M12 nuts locally, I'm going to have to order online, frustrating. Therefore, I might as well order other stuff as well!

Dave, in your list of suspension items, what do the numbers in brackets in the right hand column mean? e.g.: " 90 – A4(2) & HT, 80 - A4(2) & HT", and "35 - HT(10), A4 (6)".

And "(socket)" in the second column means it's a hexagonal socket key fitting (allen key) (edit - after looking at the car that's what it looks like)?

Also in your first post you said some bolts were "listed as being a higher strength of 12.9". Where did you find this? I ask because if I'm going to do a bulk order I might as well order all the nuts and bolts I need for the entire car (within reason), so knowing which need to be high tensile would be very helpful. (Edit - I've realised I won't be able to work out what thread some of the one-sided fasteners are, so this might be a bad idea!)

Cheers,
Will
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