Using elanscan

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Re: Using elanscan

Postby Simon_P » Thu 08.08.2019, 07:08

Hi Charlie,
I think that I your spray ether test won't work - The ECU is working to a target idle of 950 rpm if there is any change it is corrected by altering the IAC or the spark advance eg when the fans come on the revs don't drop.

If your ether spray made the revs increase the ECU would retard the timing / close the IAC. If it was closed loop it would also reduce the injector pulse to reduce the fuel input.
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Re: Using elanscan

Postby Chas54 » Thu 08.08.2019, 09:41

Yeah, good point.

The MAP vac pipework was really crumbly and I thought it must be leaking but my easy start spray made no difference to engine revs. I think you've explained why now.
Anyway I changed that piece of pipe for new .

I am just off out to my garage now to chase around the earthing points and check vacuum pipes.

I should be posting my elan scan resuls later.

Regards
Charlie
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Re: Using elanscan

Postby dapinky » Thu 08.08.2019, 11:02

Chas,

If you run the engine at idle (not in service mode), and remove one of the vacuum pipes which you can get at easily, the revs should change slightly before settling down again. Basically, the sensors get 'confused' for a short time and then compensate for the new conditions.... if there is no change in revs, then there is no confusion, so it indicates that the vacuum system hasn't changed by the pipe removal...... which suggests that there is already another leak somewhere from a pipe/fitting.

If the revs change a bit, then it suggests that the rest of the vacuum pipes/fittings are complete.
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Re: Using elanscan

Postby Chas54 » Thu 08.08.2019, 14:58

Dave
Thanks.
Yes I do get a change in revs when disconnecting a vac pipe.
I thought the MAP sensor , although new ,could be faulty but I connected a vacuum gauge on the manifold plenum outlet to the heater control vac reservoir. I figured I would disconnect the reservoir while trying to bottom this problem.
At idle I get 20" hg on my old vac gauge at idle, the MAP reading on elan scan shows a corresponding 0.34 bar. 20" is about 500mm. I think 1 bar (Atmospheric pressure) is about 750mm hg . If the manifold pulled another 250mm , I would be at pure vacuum so I think a 1/3 of a bar is accurate.

I have found a couple more dodgey vac hoses during this testing, The reservoir take off elbow at the plenum is cracked and the small hose to the fuel reg valve also cracked.

I tried a battery disconnect and then a short 30mph test drive to see if the IAC would learn where it should be , initial test shows CO around 6% still.

Simon has suggested the IAC position was incorrect and after my test drive this morning I think it improved from the position 2 to ten when warm.

I may try another run this afternoon .

I am going to put the elanscan data on here afterwards.

Regards
Charlie
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Re: Using elanscan

Postby Chas54 » Thu 08.08.2019, 16:10

I have now run elanscan twice today

The second run is labelled exbury
The first 30mph reset.

I think the IAC position is now closer to 20 when running around 30mph.

If I remove a vac hose from the plenum the engine does pick up revs slightly

I have checked the earthing but all the joints are good on the off side of the plenum,

The idle speed seems ok to me but I am convinced the engine is still running rich. Its smells that way.

Again , gratefull if anyone can spot anything on my scans. And I still haven't worked out what Flags are .

Thanks for all the suggestions , they are helping me sift through this control system.
Attachments
30mph reset.zip
(113.36 KiB) Downloaded 4 times
exbury 2019.zip
2nd run
(87.2 KiB) Downloaded 3 times
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Re: Using elanscan

Postby Simon_P » Fri 09.08.2019, 01:56

Chas54 wrote:The first 30mph reset.
Notice the IAC going full range at 135 seconds and adjusting itself.

Chas54 wrote:If I remove a vac hose from the plenum the engine does pick up revs slightly
As Dapinky says if you pull a vac hose off the revs should settle back again quickly. I didn't suggest that because at 2 clicks there is nothing left in the IAC before it is completely closed - Hence you get a rev rise as it is unable to compensate for the leak that you have created. I mentioned the fan as it would cause the IAC to open in order to compensate for the additional load of the fans.

Chas54 wrote:I think the IAC position is now closer to 20 when running around 30mph.
The IAC should be 20 at idle. The reading at anything other than idle is a response to the conditions that the engine is experiencing. Looking at the end of your second scan the IAC is 5 at idle. This needs to be adjusted. To clarify this is nothing like adjusting a carburettor and you are not adjusting the idle, you are adjusting an air bleed so that the datum point for the IAC is 20. It needs to be 20 at Idle, so it is either maladjusted or you have a vacuum leak.
http://wikilec.com/view/Tickover

As mentioned earlier you also need to ensure that the base timing is correct. Again this is not adjusting the timing it is setting the Datum and it needs to be 16 degrees.
http://wikilec.com/view/Base_Timing

Chas54 wrote:The idle speed seems ok to me
yes it is, but that is because the ECU is working to match the "engine speed" with "Target Idle" look at 1560 seconds in your scan and compare "engine speed" with "spark advance" the engine speed picks up and the ECU retards the advance to 2 degrees to slow it down. Now compare "engine speed" with "IAC position" notice that it also closes the IAC a three clicks to slow it down. Notice also that this is happening in a fraction of a second.

Looking again at the spark advance you will see that before this event it is around 16 degrees, that is what the ECU thinks is 16 degrees but the ECU has no way of knowing the actual timing and it could be anything. It relies on you setting the base timing to 16 degrees so that what it thinks is 16 degrees is actually 16 degrees.

Consider flags to be like switches they indicate conditions of things like A/C, PAS load, Fans on EGR open. As you can see we don't know what most of them are and for the time being you can ignore them.
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Re: Using elanscan

Postby Simon_P » Fri 09.08.2019, 02:35

Chas54 wrote:I have found a couple more dodgey vac hoses during this testing, ...and the small hose to the fuel reg valve also cracked.
If you have less vacuum on the FPR the fuel pressure will be too high which might make it a bit rich
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Re: Using elanscan

Postby Chas54 » Fri 09.08.2019, 14:48

Simon

Thanks , theres some really good stuff there. Also your post earlier this year explaining the difference between ignition timing and base timing.

I think my vacuum at the manifold is reasonable now at 0.35bar, this is around 35kpa and the manual states 30 to 40kpa at idle.
I have some new hosing on the way as I have used bits of odd clear tube I had laying around to do my testing.

I think ive found the IAC on the nearside lower part of the inlet plenum/manifold and the vacuum solenoid on the inside of the nearside front wing.

The adjustment screw , I think, being under a little black plastic plug.
I thought I would do as you suggest first though , and check the timing with a strobe in service mode.

I imagine the adjusting screw for the IAC would move the pintle valve seat further from the pintle , or vice versa in the other direction , But I don't understand why the adjustment wont be compensated for if the IAC position learning mode is entered in future. Would the valve not be stroked across its full range and these be reset as the new 0-80 ?

I have seen a service bulletin from 1995 suggesting my chip being a 9929 may not be able to meet current CO emission levels and there was an update made to 9930 that enabled a greater CO pot adjustment range. I am wondering if sometime in the future I will have to look at this >

Thanks again for your expertise with this .

I am off to Norfolk for a week on the Broads with family this weekend so you have a little respite from my queries.

regards
Charlie
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Re: Using elanscan

Postby dapinky » Fri 09.08.2019, 16:54

Charlie,

As you have now got your head around Elanscan (and most of what it means), and it is apparent from your posts that you are quite handy with bits and pieces around the car, can I offer you a suggestion?

To get the car into service mode you need to short out 2 of the pins on the connector..... which means that you can't then fit the elanscan plug......

...however, what I have done is to connect a simple rocker switch to a length of wire which has one end spliced to one wire at the back of the connector, and the other end spliced to the other wire. I fitted the switch into the roof of the glovebox, so to enter 'service mode' it is a simple case of flipping the switch (and it is reachable from the drivers seat). As it doesn't affect the actual connector face, Elanscan will still plug in (in fact, i leave my bluetooth adapter permanently fitted anyway).

It isn't usefull very often, but when it is, it's invaluable.

As you wish to fiddle with the air bleed screw to get the idle/IAC set correctly, you will need to be in 'service mode' (otherwise the other sensors will try to get it set at 925rpm anyway), and the dashboard tacho isn't always totally accurate, you can simply use elanscan in real-time mode to check the exact revs whilst it's in service mode.

Whilst you're there, it is also worth looking at what the throttle is doing - with no physical input, it should show 0.4V on the TPS and show 0% throttle (ignition on, engine not running!).... then put your foot all the way down to ensure that you are getting 100% throttle. When I changed my carpets/mats there was enough of an obstruction to the pedal movement to make it only go to 96%, so a quick adjustment at the engine end of the cable soon had full movement back (with enough slack still in the cable).

Both of these are quick and simple adjustments which may or may not make much difference (if needed), but all helps to have it right!
Dave

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Re: Using elanscan

Postby Chas54 » Fri 09.08.2019, 19:46

Thanks Dave.

I was wondering about setting the IAC without seeing the results on elanscan . I can your switch is a rather good idea, particularly with all the grief I have at the moment.

I have just checked the base timing , largely because Simon P suggested it and he seems to be very knowledgeable about these things.He did write a really good explanation of the base timing and its effect on ignition timing in normal mode.

This was my first entering into service mode.

I struggled a bit to find the very slight notch on the crank pulley but now both the notch and the 16 degree before TDC mark are highlighted with white marker.

Anyway, entered service mode and the engine revs picked up slightly , remembered to cycle the revs above 2000 and back down slowly. Checked the timing marks and low and behold, I had a mere 8degrees BTDC. So I have now tweeked it to 16 degrees BTDC.

Now it says in wicki that the timings is invariably found wrong but I cant think why as I thought there was very little to wear out, unlike points on a distributor.

I have to try the IAC adjustment next but I thought I might try a dissconnection and reset first then a learning drive and see where things end up.

It may be just self delusion but the engine is ticking over slightly quieter.. I know when I start my Austin seven with the ignition lever retarded the whole things sounds noisey until I advance the lever a bit.

I may get tomorrow morning to test run the car , but then I have to leave all my toys and go on holiday

Thanks again

Charlie
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Re: Using elanscan

Postby Chas54 » Sun 11.08.2019, 17:12

aa3.zip
idle after base timing and IA adjustment
(16.99 KiB) Downloaded 3 times
Gentlemen

After adjusting the base timing from 8 degrees to 16 BTDC , and (I think) getting on top of lots of bits of cracked vacuum hosing,
I have adjusted the idle air control screw !!

I had to screw in the adjusting screw 1 full turn. I initially turned it 1.5 turns to adjust the revs down in the service mode, whilst the dash rev counter showed around 950 on reconnecting the elan scan , it was down to 9250., Back to service mode and reduce by 1/2 turn and now its pretty close.

In normal mode now I am getting just bellow 2% CO on my gunson meter , whereas I was getting between 6 & 8 %..

I am attaching a stationary elanscan for any comments. I will be unable to try the car until next week.

I am feeling somewhat happier with the results and becoming more enlightend about the mysterious world of chipped control systems on the Elan.

Elanscan has become useful to me now, although I could do with a way of displaying more than two traces in the graph box .

So thanks Brit-car-nut, Dapinky and Simon P for all your advice and technical expertise.

I am still wondering why the base timing would be out so significantly and the Idle air screw, I can imagine that may travel on its own as it is not tight to adjust, I may try the locking mod on wiki.

I'm also thinking about dapinkys service mode switch although I might try one in the elanscan cable . Does it prevent elanscan reading any data having the service mode short on ?

Now I must also consider changing the memcal chip from 9929 to 9930 . Or perhaps as I am down to 2% CO I don't need it?

Regards
Charlie
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Re: Using elanscan

Postby dapinky » Sun 11.08.2019, 18:49

Charlie,

You are kind to mention my "expertise", but if you actually read what i put, very little has anything to do with actually interpretting the elanscan data - it really isn't my forte, but I use it as a good tool to tell me what other things are doing :oops: - There are far better guys on here at looking at results and actually knowing what they mean, and what to do to put things right!

I am pleased that your CO readings are a lot better, and I would suggest that as you can get within the readings required for the MOT (albeit that it isn't on a VOSA callibrated machine), then a 9930 chip replacement will be money spent for little result...... however, money spent to replace the chip with a 1499 chip and adding an O2 sensor will mean that you'll never have to worry about the emissions again, as they'll be down to something in the region of 0.5%...... and at that point (if you're changing the chip anyway), then there is little (if any) cost difference in getting the Everest version of the 1499..... and then it's a whole new ballgame of fun!
Dave

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