Rosie's return to glory

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Re: Rosie's return to glory

Postby TorqueHorse » Thu 13.08.2020, 03:04

Oh wow, that's great. If I'm reading it right, then the black values are what you identified as 'ideal', the gray are less than ideal, and the red are 'problematic'? I like how you did the research and identified the existing standard sizes for some of these options.
FWIW, I've ordered the BS007 (which you have as black), and the BS904 (which you have as gray/red) - since they were just a few dollars more and in stock.
Here is a website that has some in those dimensions that you list as 'ideal' https://www.marcorubber.com/product/L1002-2X8.9
This example isn't EPDM, but FEPM, which might work. If we did something like this, it seems like a *at your own risk* group buy opportunity, to bring the cost down to somewhat reasonable (vs just trying to buy a whole new assembly). For 100 units, it was like $200 total, and had about a 6 week lead time.

I know there are some smarter heads working on this problem already too. Might be time to start an (in)famous LEC list to gauge interest.
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Re: Rosie's return to glory

Postby esprit888 » Thu 13.08.2020, 04:13

RonR wrote:Another lock-down pastime for me was trying to calculate the prop valve O-ring sizes.
I used the O-ring calculator Here

Here's what I came up with for what it's worth:
Prop Valve Oring calcs.jpg


Nice calculator Ron ! Can i ask where the bore and groove diameters came from? Do you have the specs for the original Prop valve? Sure would be nice to have that as it may be possible to hunt a replacement down. Or were the O ring dimensions inputted and the calculator did the rest?
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Re: Rosie's return to glory

Postby Rambo » Thu 13.08.2020, 09:16

Interesting background reading here....viewtopic.php?f=41&t=17266&hilit=Proportioning+valves
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Re: Rosie's return to glory

Postby RonR » Fri 14.08.2020, 20:52

I didn't have access to the original specs. Measurements came from a dismantled good condition spare, also from a new Vauxhall 3/45 valve which uses the same centre section but different ends, piston and spring. The piston and cylinder measurements were put into the calculator, then I tried various o-ring sizes until the stretch and squash figures met the specs for the fluid and o-ring material.

A note of CAUTION: I'd say the BS904 is VERY marginal, once it's stretched over the piston it will only compress by ~1.4% in the cylinder, while the calculator recommends 10% or greater. I'd expect to see fluid leakage past the seal when under pressure.
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Re: Rosie's return to glory

Postby muley » Fri 14.08.2020, 21:11

Rambo wrote:I think Jim (Muley) has done some work on proportioning valves in the last year or so. I think he eventually replaced them

Also, I'm fairly sure Dapinky has some useful info re. prop. valves

Some other info here....viewtopic.php?f=41&t=23606&p=353877&hilit=Proportioning+valves#p353877


I did indeed. I bought the o rings with the dimensions posted by Bob but the dimensions were wrong. Another friendly LECer sold me some secondhand valves and I was able to rebuild them When I return to UK in 2021 I'll fit them (and finish the cambelt change)
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Re: Rosie's return to glory

Postby esprit888 » Fri 14.08.2020, 21:12

RonR wrote:I didn't have access to the original specs. Measurements came from a dismantled good condition spare, also from a new Vauxhall 3/45 valve which uses the same centre section but different ends, piston and spring. The piston and cylinder measurements were put into the calculator, then I tried various o-ring sizes until the stretch and squash figures met the specs for the fluid and o-ring material.

A note of CAUTION: I'd say the BS904 is VERY marginal, once it's stretched over the piston it will only compress by ~1.4% in the cylinder, while the calculator recommends 10% or greater. I'd expect to see fluid leakage past the seal when under pressure.


I also felt it was a little on the small side as their CS is definitely not the same as the original. I have ordered several sizes from three different suppliers to test them out, so I should have around 2,000 O rings I’ll never use :-D
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Re: Rosie's return to glory

Postby TorqueHorse » Mon 17.08.2020, 01:36

Road to removal
Awesome to hear progress on the quest to find the one o-ring to rule them all. I've heard the craft to forge them had been lost to the ages :wink: but I'm not stopping progress on my headgasket to totally figure out those valves just yet.

Finally got a look at the decrepit strap that was holding the coolant tank in place. I haven't seen this in many other folks' engine bay photos. Don't think I'll be able to save it though. Anyone have thoughts on their favorite replacement for these?
Image

Got to step 5 (of 20) in the WSM this weekend to be able to pull the engine. I am taking as many photos and videos as I can, but the interweaving of hoses, wires, and cables, seems daunting; only the knowledge that others have done it gives me courage to continue :).
Image

There is going to be sooooo much cleaning once this thing is out ;-) I haven't gotten to the coolant hoses yet, but I'm betting there is going to be a Samco purchase in my future.
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Re: Rosie's return to glory

Postby esprit888 » Mon 17.08.2020, 07:22

TorqueHorse wrote:Finally got a look at the decrepit strap that was holding the coolant tank in place. I haven't seen this in many other folks' engine bay photos. Don't think I'll be able to save it though. Anyone have thoughts on their favorite replacement for these?
Image
.


Don’t throw away the old strap, you can re-use the ends, bend the staples back and remove them, then buy the multi hole bungy strap, rivet or staple the old hooked end to the strap and you’re done. I’ll upload pics when I’m next in the garage.
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Re: Rosie's return to glory

Postby Saltire » Mon 17.08.2020, 08:12

TorqueHorse wrote:There is going to be sooooo much cleaning once this thing is out ;-) I haven't gotten to the coolant hoses yet, but I'm betting there is going to be a Samco purchase in my future.

Ohhhh, not just cleaning. You also have media blasting, powder coating, chassis derusting, power steering pipe replacement, UJ regreasing, alternator and starter overhaul and all sorts of other exciting things to look forward to. Having the engine out makes it so much easier to indulge in scope creep :twisted: :lol:

Here’s mine.
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Re: Rosie's return to glory

Postby TorqueHorse » Mon 17.08.2020, 13:29

Don’t throw away the old strap, you can re-use the ends, bend the staples back and remove them, then buy the multi hole bungy strap...

Sounds good!

Ohhhh, not just cleaning. You also have media blasting, powder coating, chassis derusting, power steering pipe replacement, UJ regreasing, alternator and starter overhaul and all sorts of other exciting things to look forward to. Having the engine out makes it so much easier to indulge in scope creep :twisted: :lol:

D@^n you...must...resist... :chair: No, I'm drawing the line at the suspension and steering rack this go. But, maybe I could... ;) Seriously though, what symptoms made you think you needed to work on starter or alternator?
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Re: Rosie's return to glory

Postby Rambo » Mon 17.08.2020, 13:41

TorqueHorse wrote:Seriously though, what symptoms made you think you needed to work on starter or alternator?


It's a long story......viewtopic.php?f=80&t=27928

PS the strap is a waste of space. Most were lost or rotted away years ago and it doesn't really add much. "Add lightness " CC :wink:
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Re: Rosie's return to glory

Postby TorqueHorse » Mon 17.08.2020, 15:29

It's a long story...

Doh! Inverse square relationship between thread creep and scope creep? Or 1:1 :)
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Re: Rosie's return to glory

Postby Saltire » Mon 17.08.2020, 22:29

TorqueHorse wrote:Seriously though, what symptoms made you think you needed to work on starter or alternator?

I had no symptoms as such. But I did have Simon_P’s excellent repair kits tucked away for a rainy day, and a list of people from the forum with fairly recent alternator woes. And I knew it was odds on that if I just put them back they’d fail soon afterwards and both are a challenge to remove.

Given that it had been a bit neglected when I bought it, my philosophy with the car has been to update and refurbish when I have access, with the expectation that I’ll end up with a sound car that needs little mechanical work (apart from regular maintenance) for the foreseeable future.

Yes, I do get these hallucinations sometimes :lol:
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Re: Rosie's return to glory

Postby Rambo » Tue 18.08.2020, 09:07

As you are taking your engine out I would recommend cleaning and bench testing both of these items. There have been quite a few folks on here who haven't used their car for ages that go out for a spin, smell burning and see the on board voltmeter dropping away :? In fact, even if the car is used regularly I've noticed that from about 25 years on people are starting to experience alternator problems. I haven't noticed this nearly as much with starter motors but probably worth checking out anyway
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Re: Rosie's return to glory

Postby TorqueHorse » Sun 23.08.2020, 02:40

Thanks @Saltire + Rambo; will do.

Completed step 7 from the WSM on the road to removing the engine today. Almost posted this in the 'Things that made you smile today channel' ;) Rain came through last night and it was only 90 degrees out, had my beer, had some Harry's Garage playing, and the parts were coming off no problem.
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8)
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Re: Rosie's return to glory

Postby TorqueHorse » Mon 07.09.2020, 02:33

Well that didn't take long, only a couple posts and I've broken my scope creep promise :) Well I'm only half breaking it...for now. Seeing as the penultimate step for me before lifting the engine out is to remove the drive shafts from the transmission, I guess I'll bite the bullet and try and fix the right hand side front suspension while I'm there too. But the power steering stays and so does the left hand suspension. At least, that's the plan until I break it again :lol: .

Got everything else checked off on the WSM steps for removal. But I learned there was no 'Step 13' so I don't know what crucial thing I missed there. Maybe it had to do with this unknown part?
Image
This was mounted just below the top of the clam shell where I have it. Not attached to anything and not even a hole for anything to mount to it. All it does is prevent me from pulling the starter Cat up from above :? .

Also, its not in the WSM, but it is in the directions for the head gasket removal on the wiki: remember to loosen the cam shaft bolt, before you put your car up on jacks. Of course I forgot, and after trying to brace the pulley in place, all I did was shear the allen wrench a couple of times.
Image
Ended up putting the wheels back on and lowering the car again, and then with all the brakes locked I had enough resistance to get it loose. But now that I'm planning on removing the driveshaft, I'll have to do it all again to get that hub nut off. Oh well, c'est la vie :wink:
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Re: Rosie's return to glory

Postby TorqueHorse » Wed 30.09.2020, 17:23

ProngerWrong
If you've been following my journey, you'll remember I was stumped as to why there wasn't any clearance between the bottom of the righthand driveshaft and the top of the prongeron/engine bay underframe. Thanks to esprit888 it looks like I should have about 14mm of clearance, yet I have maybe 0~2mm. With the suspension removed on that side, I could see more clearly what was out of whack.

As suspected, the raft hanger plates are bent.
Image

And the prongeron connection at that corner is about 11mm higher than the other three corners.
Image

Everything else 'looks' ok (longeron, raft, control arms, collapsible crash spacers, etc.) and the dims everywhere else check out. So without appropriate tools, I attempted to see if I could repair the deflection myself. I started with a wood cage around the prongeron; put the heaviest thing I could find on it, and got the biggest lever I had.
Image

Kind of predictably the wood just split in shear. So on to bad idea #2. I wedged a jack under the corner I was trying to bend and slowly jacked, while checking the dimensions of the prongeron to see if there was any change.
Image

You guessed it, no change besides lifting up my car. By this point I'm realizing I should have paid more attention in physics and remembered that E=1/2mv^2. So there probably isn't a dead weight that I'd have access to that could provide enough resistance. I've heard of people burying their parts in the ground as a 'vice' but that just seems too hard for this part. At this point, I think I'll just need to shell out for a shop to bend it.

Plus I have bigger things to deal with now :)
Image

Top tip: Try to time the purchase/assembly of your hoist and pulling the engine as close together, before the wife can see it and ask "where are you going to put that?"
(Why, in the garage you just cleaned out, of course :smt073)
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Re: Rosie's return to glory

Postby TorqueHorse » Mon 12.10.2020, 20:55

Commence clean creep

With the engine out I could now get to every hose, wire, pipe, and plate in the engine bay and just scrape, spray, wipe, scrub and repeat.
Before
Image

After
Image

Even with the power steering drained, I was still getting a leak somewhere on the left hand side. The gaiter was split in a few places, and upon inspection, I could see the aluminum raft had some filings sticking out from the cast joint, and it looked like it had rubbed and torn the gaiter. So I filed those bits down and sealed the cracks in the gaiter with some RTV black. Maybe it will work, we'll see. (view before filing down)
Image

Like all good scope creep stories I don't even remember what I was doing, but somehow the glovebox lock had come apart in my hand, and the glovebox key that I had, didn't match the lock (yet the ignition and door lock keys on the ring work just fine). So weird that I have an actual glovebox key, and the right GM glovebox lock, but they aren't paired.
Image

Well, no matter since all the little brass 'pins' went flying everywhere, I was able to file a couple down while rebuilding, so that the lock is now keyed to the key I have.
Image


Trying to make way for engine work on the table, I want to get the right hand suspension somewhat presentable and refurb the blown CV joint, so that I can put it back up on the car. Oh boy, so much baked on grease though.
Image

I feel like a dentist cleaning a hippo's mouth.
Image

With the big stuff scraped off, I hit the bearings with some Sea Foam Deep Creep before I was going to put it in an acetone soak. Yikes, was not expecting this...time to take a break.
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Re: Rosie's return to glory

Postby TorqueHorse » Wed 14.10.2020, 16:39

Elbow grease and chemistry got it looking better
Image

I put humpdy's needles back together, and while they don't spin as freely as the the others, it does spin.
Image

And all ready to be packed...when I realize I only have outer boot replacements and not inner boots :bonk:
Image

Not as gloriously pristine as I would hope it would be, but as this side is unobtainable new, it should be good enough until I notice symptoms for commissioning a custom replacement (And when folks do that, do they do the whole driveshaft or just the tripod and tulip bell?).
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Re: Rosie's return to glory

Postby HJ2 » Sat 17.10.2020, 21:14

Good progress!
I’ll take my hat for all your hard work. 8)

Just out of curiousity, what was the total heighth of the engine crane when it was heigh enough to lift over the clamshell?
I want to know if this is possible in my garage.

Would it als possible to do it the other way and lift the car over the lowered engine?
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