Trainee Mechanic

[ailwyn]

URGENT HELP REQUIRED!

Finally, I have the Wilwood kit fitted.... well almost.

Discs, hats, brackets, calipers all fitted, seem to be perfect, some very slight rubbing on one of the pads, but I'm going to press ahead and see if the bedding in helps align everything.

On to my problem, trying to get the old hoses off the front, but the nut (?) holding them to the metal piping will not shift, suprised really as the rears were a piece of cake.....

The nuts themselves are starting to round and looking at where the front pipes run.... I don't want to go there!

Looking for a confirmation firstly, that the nut should turn anticlockwise to undo?

Also appreciate some input from someone who knows about brakes/hoses as to whether I can keep the standard rubber ones for the moment.... I'm too close now to want to risk a major disater unless I need to, so the question is..... are the stock hoses on the front sufficient for use with the wilwood kit?

I realise that I will need to address this sooner or later....but that's why god invented winter wasn't it?

Thanks

Ailwyn

[F1 LOTUS]

The Wilwood hoses will NOT fit the stock brakes.

Removing the stubborn hose fitting...I seem to recall ESM had a fight with one of his, a quick scan through the 15" brake thread or a PM should confirm this?

Slight rubbing? - Is this with the wheel on and torqued-up? (putting the wheel on ensures the hat has seated evenly to the hub).

[ailwyn]

The Wilwood hoses will NOT fit the stock brakes.

Bugger! Thought that might be the answer Thanks for the advice, I'll have a scan through the 15" thread. Will PM Alan if I don't get any joy.

Thanks

Ailwyn

[Dico]

Looking for a confirmation firstly, that the nut should turn anticlockwise to undo?

Yep, definately anticlockwise.

that's why god invented winter wasn't it?

Trust me, theres no such person.

[algirdas]

Dear Ailwyn:

Please use my answer as a stop gap measure until someone who has done the conversion chimes in. The rubber brake line fitting should turn anti-clockwise to loosen and clockwise to tighten. Should be standard brakeline hydraulic stuff.

It sounds as if you are trying to break apart the two hydraulic fittings. If that is the case, get a good snug fit with a wrench on the frame or bulkhead piece (that is the piece that you cannot mess up under any circumstances). Then get your wrench on the piece that you are trying to screw out of the bulkhead piece.

I'm at the office, so I am doing this by memory. You may have to adjust the position of the wrenches, but at least the concept should come through.

Here are your choices:

First, hose both sides down with WD-40 or some other penetrating oil/substance. Wipe the surfaces clean so your wrenches don't slip off.

Second, position the wrench on the bulkhead piece so that it is pointing down as close to six to seven o'clock as you can get it. Next position the wrench on the piece you are trying to screw out so that it is around nine o'clock. Take your left hand and slide it up the wrench on the bulkhead piece so that you are holding the wrench on the bulkhead piece and with your thumb holding the second wrench on the piece you are trying to remove. Remember, one of the keys here is that you want the jaws of your wrench to have as much "bite" as possible on the pieces. Now take your right hand and give the wrench on the part you are trying to screw out a gentle "rap". Sometimes a bit of "shock" helps break rusted parts free. Check to make sure the wrenches are on securely. Repeat with a little bit more force. All you are trying to do here is bust the thing loose.

Third, if you were able to bust it loose or, if not, move the wrench on the piece you are trying to unscrew until it is at seven or eight o'clock relative to the one on the bulkhead (the one at six o'clock). Again making sure that they fully engage the fittings, put both hands on the wrenches and "squeeze" the two wrenches together. That should drive the one you are trying to loosen to unscrew. Remember to push up slightly so as to keep the wrenches fully engaged.

If this does not work, then you are going to have to get ugly with it. Hose it down with WD-40 (wipe the surfaces clean again) and clamp a set of vise-grips (I think you guys call them "mole-grips"). Clamp the mole grip on the bulkhead piece as far away from the flex piece as you can. Vise-grips can generate some significant locking power and you do not want to be crushing the threads onto the piece you are trying to unscrew. Clamp the second vise-grip onto the flex piece fitting. Turn the piece you are trying to unscrew counterclockwise. Try to protect the bulkhead piece. At this point the flex piece will probably be toast. You want the vise-grips on tight enough so that they do not turn and maul the fittings.

During reassembly, remember this corner of the car and pay extra close attention to it for leaks.

It is my understanding that you have to replace the front flex hoses if you are installing Wilwoods since the original brakes (at least on my SE) use a banjo bolt arrangement at the caliper end of the flex hose. Brian's use a screw-on AN fitting.

I hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Algirdas

[Monty]

Couldn`t be bothered reading all the above have u tried holding the larger nut with a spanner (19mm?) whilst undoing the brake pipe? u`ve got o becarefull not to twist or fracture the pipe. U can buy a brake pipe spanner from u`r local motor factors which is like a ring spanner with slot in it to get over the pipe.

something like this
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Classic-Vehicle-Brake-Pipe-Spanner-11mm-x-13mm-Hex_W0QQitemZ270002417880QQihZ017QQcategoryZ9903QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[algirdas]

Dear Ailwyn:

I've been up all night monitoring my e-mails to see if there were any more postings from you. How goes the battle?

Sincerely,

Algirdas

PS Just kidding about being up all night. In fact, I spent the night snoring louder than a steam locomotive.

[Candles]

Crows-feet spanners:

http://www.tooled-up.com/Product.asp?PID=18457&MAN=Draper-3-8-inch-Square-Drive-8-Piece-Crow-Foot-Spanner-Set

[John_W]

Ailwyn,
If you've searched the 15" Wilwood thread as you said you would do, you've probably already found
this.

I had similar problems to you in getting the RHS flexible to hard-pipe union undone. Some comments (excuse me if some are obvious):
- standard flexible hoses do not fit the Wilwoods (which do not use banjo bolts).
- the brake unions between hard-pipe and flexible pipe are standard right-hand threads (metric).
- remove the wheelarch liner to ensure good access and optimum positioning of spanners (this is an adventure in itself if your bolts have rusted).
- remove the spring clip plate holding the metal end of the flexible hose onto the bracket on the chassis.
- use the crows-feet (Candles) or brake-pipe ring spanner (Monty) on the hard-pipe union and an ordinary (?19mm?) ring spanner on the flexible.
- mine didn't shift with that lot as the crows-foot spanner just rounded the union, so I had to use vise-grips (Algirdas) and did get it off OK. I then spoiled all this by cross-threading it when putting on the new braided hose, so :
- if all else fails, just accept that you will have to replace the hard pipe to the master cylinder. I agree with you that the LHS (passenger side) looks a real pig (and I would try everything to avoid replacing it), but the RHS (drivers side) only took me about an hour to replace.
- be very careful when locating the new braided hose, making sure it does not rub on anything rotating. I found it best to have the loop in the hose angled back towards the wishbone, thus giving maximum clearance to the wheel.
- Test-spin the wheel after you've assembled it all to make sure nothing rubs. Then drive a few feet in a quiet place with the hood down to ensure you can hear if anything's rubbing. Don't drive more than a few feet if you hear a rubbing noise. Fix the clearance and test again.
- If you're happy nothing's rubbing, go for a quick spin, then come back, remove the wheels and check the braided hoses again to ensure there's nothing been rubbing on them.
- follow the bedding-in instructions, then be happy that you've got good brakes.

Good luck,

John

[ailwyn]

Thanks to all for the replies and encouragement.

I took Monty's advice and got the correct tools for the job - a 11mm brake pipe spanner and an open ended 19mm.

Worked a treat

Front and rear brakes are all back together, and the car is on 4 axl stands ready for the brake system to be re-filled and bled.

I did look at removing the wheel arch liners to get better access, but took one look at the bolts and decided against it. Made do with applying some pressure by hand at the point where the brake pipe comes through. It's fairly pliable here so gave me just enough clearance to get the pipe spanner on.

Jacked onto the axl stands by jacking at the front outer jacking point, this went high enought to lift both front and rear wheels, placed the axl stands under the front inner jacking point (chassis bolts) and rear outer jacking point. Move to the other side and repeat.

Next adventure with the bleeding to commence shortly.... watch this space!

Ailwyn

[algirdas]

Dear Ailwyn:

Congratulations! Good job! Woo-woo!

Sincerely,

Algirdas

[GeoffSmith]

Ailwyn,

In anticipation of this happening to me some time in the future, I've got a stupid question:
Why can't you just cut the pipe and use an 11mm ring instead of the brake pipe spanner?

Geoff

[ailwyn]

Ailwyn,

In anticipation of this happening to me some time in the future, I've got a stupid question:
Why can't you just cut the pipe and use an 11mm ring instead of the brake pipe spanner?

Geoff

The aim is not to replace the metal pipe, on which the nut (actually it's more of a bolt) is secured, you only want to change the rubber hose, the top of which is the receiver for the nut .

If you did want to change the pipe itself it looks loke a pig of a job because it's routed around the back of the engine, and as far as I can see is a single piece.

Ailwyn

[GeoffSmith]

Ailwyn,

So the fixed pipe is the 11mm end (penny drops) - it makes sense now, thanks.

Geoff

PS When I said pipe, I meant hose!

[ailwyn]

Ailwyn,

So the fixed pipe is the 11mm end (penny drops) - it makes sense now, thanks.

Geoff

PS When I said pipe, I meant hose!

Yes, 11mm on the pipe, the hose side of the connector has a built in 19mm nut.

The way I found that worked was to use the 19mm nut to brace, and applied the turn to the 11mm nut.

Ailwyn

[ailwyn]

Does anyone happen to know how much brake fluid it takes to fill the system?

I'm off to pick it up now but given the cost don't want to get too much, nor do I want to get caught short.

Thanks

Ailwyn

[Specky]

Does anyone happen to know how much brake fluid it takes to fill the system?

I'm off to pick it up now but given the cost don't want to get too much, nor do I want to get caught short.

Thanks

Ailwyn

It took me just over 2 Ltrs, inclusive of bleeding..

It's a**e

TTFN

[ailwyn]

Thanks Dave, I'll get 3 litres to be safe.

Ailwyn

[ailwyn]

Ok, I'm confused.

I have, I think, bled the brakes, however the pedal is still spongey, so much so I won't even test them with the wheels rolling (along the road I mean).

What's confusing me is from all four calipers I have clear running brake fluid - no bubbles, however it's only taken about 3/4 of a litre of brake fluid to fill the system.

When I say fill, I'm assuming the system was empty as all four calipers/hoses have been changed and the fluid was allowed to run out.

I will go back and have another go at bleeding them tomorrow, but does anyone have any pointers? They are being done in the correct sequence, LH Rear - RH Rear - LH Front - RH Front, but this 3/4 litre seems a long way off Dave's 2 litres.

I'm wondering if there could be air somewhere mid-system? If so, any thoughts on getting it out?

I have also read some scary comments in other posts about the seals in the master cylinder here -> http://www.lotuselancentral.com/forum/v ... php?t=7531

Although I didn't put a physical block behind the pedal I was careful not to push the pedal any further than my approximation of normal brake pedal travel. Just hope it's not this that's the problem

Any thoughts appreciated.

Thanks

Ailwyn

[ailwyn]

BTW If anyone is thinking about changing the brake fluid, halfords currently have an under advertised promotion on their own brand Dot 5.1 - buy 2 get 1 free.

Ailwyn