Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby Tuga2112 » Fri 03.06.2016, 00:47

Fredjohn wrote:Joao

Rambo is right: run the engine and let the fans come on and off a couple of times immediately before you go for the test. This will allow the engine to thoroughly warm up and keep emission readings down. It does work: I did it last year for the MOT and the reading was about .5 lower than previous year.

John

John,

Thanks for the tip. Now that you mentioned it, I recall you previously saying the same at the coach & horses.
Will do that. another positive to that plan is that it doesn't require revving high so shouldn't cause issues with neighbours.

Should be posting pictures of the new discs tomorrow, also planning to record video for youtube. Does anyone know who is running the m100 restoration channel by any chance ?
I intend to record the job tomorrow in a "how to" format, so it may be of use for that channel as well.
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby Tuga2112 » Fri 03.06.2016, 22:07

Today's progress was below my expectations.

Resume of the day
I started the job by the rear discs/hubs.
First issue was getting hold of a 18mm 6 point NOT DEEP socket.
went to car parts store in town, no luck, then toolstation, no luck
followed by another car parts store in the outskirts. where i managed to get a deep impact socket of the correct size.... which when i arrived home realised didnt have enough clearance to do the job.
Following that, i checked online for both halfrauds and BQ for the socket. to find halfrauds had it.
Gone to halfrauds (which happens to be on the very opposite end of town) to source the socket. and found out the only models they had available are the 12 point ones. Got both 3/8 and 1/2 versions as the clearance was different and I was a bit worried. Then followed to the discount wholesale warehouse next to halfords to find exactly what i been looking for... in another Socket set. (quote happy with its quality actually)
so, when i finally got to remove the rear calliper. then the hub came out without any problem. and i didnt realise that the bearings needed the outer shells removed. a quick call to SJ asking if i was missing something pointed that out so a hammer and a punch did get them transfered to the new hubs without any major issues.
When assembling the new hubs back, i noticed they are noisier than the previous ones. which makes me wonder if i missed something. or even if i should order right now a new set of bearings (what sizes) to replace the old ones with asap?
Front passenger disc was a breeze after the struggle of the rears.
then the front driver size came to haunt me. with a seized retaining screw.
Tried plenty of penetration oil without any success.
Tried hammer the disc to shake off rust.
Hammer on the screw to shake it off.
Hammer while trying to turn it loose. (same technique as done with impact screws)
Then i tried brute force the screw using an alan key and some leverage by attaching the bit to a 1/4 socket on the wrench
after that last attempt the screw is now round. so I gave up.

Dificulty for tomorow and help required
since packing to the side the tools 2 different approaches have came to mind in order this problem solved.
1 - use the Dremel to grind off the head of the screw
2 - use a drill with left handed HHS bit to try to break it loose. if it doesn't brake loose it will just be destroyed in the process.

I am more inclined to use option 2 as i can always tap a new thread this way. also, seems to be the one with highest chance of success.

Still concerned about the Handbrake performance
When I did the 3 point turn on the driveway to start working on the front brakes. I was not particularly impressed with the efficiency of the rear brakes.
In fact I suspect at the moment they may be worse of than before the MOT.
Before you guys ask, I did adjust the handbrake by pulling it up and down a good 20-30 times. so it shouldn't be in need of more self adjustment.
Dont get me wrong. it does stop the car on the slope of my driveway after 4-5 ticks.
HOWEVER currently I can pull it up to 7 ticks then, raise the rear, and spin the wheels when tightening the wheel nuts. something that I surely was not counting on.

Is there a way I can improve this tomorrow before taking it to the MOT (My window of work will be between 8 and 10:30, cant start earlier for noise reasons. and need some padding time to run the car before retest to get emissions under control, im assuming 30 to 60 minutes of this will be used to get the front disc sorted)?

so.. yes. help is needed. clearly things didn't go according to plan. (bloody 18mm bolts) :chair:
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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby dapinky » Fri 03.06.2016, 22:41

Tuga2112 wrote:.... (bloody 18mm bolts) :chair:



Joao,

Those bloody 18mm bolts which attach the rear calliper are probably actually excellent 11/16" bolts!!!!!! (it's an American calliper and fixings, so uses Imperial fittings).

I can see 3 main issues with your current situation (1) front disc attachment, (2) Rear bearing noise & (3) handbrake,,,,

(1) The small (cant remember if it's an M5 or M6) threaded countersunk screw doesn't actually do a lot when it is all together - it purely holds the disc in place to stop it dropping off when you remove the wheel - when the wheel is fitted, the wheelbolts hold it all together..... so if you need to destroy it to get the disc off it isn't the end of the world - you can fit the new disc without it.

(2) I would always fit new bearings and races ('cos they are quite cheap) to new hubs - but if you are using the old ones, make sure that the ones which come off the drivers side go back on the drivers side.

(3) I suspect that there is too much initial gap between the brake pads and the hub, and that when the lever is operated, it uses most of it's travel to take up the slack. This should rectify itself with operation (automatic adjustment) - but make sure that when you do it, your foot is off the brake pedal.

If that doesn't fix it, then I would remove the brake cable from the lever, make sure it all moves freely at the calliper, and move it through it's full travel with a pair of pliers (you'll have to take the springs off first) - this should get them to adjust properly.

If it still won't work, there is a trick of removing the calliper from the hub, holding it just away from the disc, then operating the handbrake lever so that the pads move inwards to slightly beyond where they would go in operation (as the disc doesn't get in the way), then as you release the lever they move out again, but in a slightly more 'inward' place than before. You now push the calliper back over the disc and replace the bolts - try to operate the handbrake lever with the pliers again - it should now be good, or it may need to go a bit more. Only when you can get the rear discs to lock up with a small movement of the lever is it correct - then you can replace the springs and the cables and do the other side - it's actually quite a quick procedure and isn't noisy so you can do this a bit earlier in the morning :D
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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby Tuga2112 » Sat 04.06.2016, 00:16

Dave,
Thanks for the information.

Ref the handbrake, I am reading multiple times what you said to ensure I understand it correctly, and have some questions. (read further down).

dapinky wrote:Those bloody 18mm bolts which attach the rear calliper are probably actually excellent 11/16" bolts!!!!!! (it's an American calliper and fixings, so uses Imperial fittings).


I did consider the possibility of the bolts being imperial. and tried every imperial socket available.
Image

Unfortunately 11/16 didnt fit and 18mm isn't available on the 200 something piece toolbox from BQ that consists of the (diminishing) majority of my tool arsenal.
I figured 18 was the right size because 19 was too big ,17 too small and I don't get along with fractions. :-D

dapinky wrote:I can see 3 main issues with your current situation (1) front disc attachment, (2) Rear bearing noise & (3) handbrake...


1 - Destroying the screw was my plan, after the MOT passed i have Sunday to put a new one in (still haven't practised that task and need to practice it for another car MOT failure ). The driver's side does not have one, It has been destroyed before I got to own the car, so i assumed it was safe to drive without it. When I mentioned the problem and the solutions I have in mind, my intention was to see if there was other (simpler/easier) options floating around.

2 - The problem really was the fact when I bought the hubs, I assumed all I had to do was bolt out a big bulk of steel, and bolt in another. I was not expecting to have to "mess" with bearings. so when the new hub didn't sit flush, the penny dropped, and I got one of those "oh sh!t" moments... so reusing the bearings was all I could do with the tools/parts at hand.
I did do each hub replacement completely without touching the opposite side, I am sure the bearings are on the correct place (as the inner side is still on the inner side of the car), not 100% sure if the races (new meaning of the word for me) are facing the same way as before, as I lost track of that when dismantling, they went back in with the "flange" facing the centre of the hub, as I though it made sense in order to be able to removed them in future.

One thing to note, the wheels do spin nearly as freely as before the hub was swapped (same effort used to make spin 8 times, now does 6.5 - 7 revolutions)

dapinky wrote:This should rectify itself with operation (automatic adjustment) - but make sure that when you do it, your foot is off the brake pedal.

Did the adjustment without the foot on the brake (came across that information by pure luck when roaming the forum very recently)
I could clearly see an improvement as the pistons got a lot closer to the disc, but as you predicted, not enough braking effect.

dapinky wrote:If that doesn't fix it, then I would remove the brake cable from the lever, make sure it all moves freely at the calliper, and move it through it's full travel with a pair of pliers (you'll have to take the springs off first) - this should get them to adjust properly.


This is interesting. I have simulated the movement of the handbrake by pulling the lever by hand, this was done with everything in place, and no major difficulty making the moment.

what do you mean by
"make sure it all moves freely at the calliper" ?
Is it the lever movement ? the pistons? something else ?
When moving the lever by hand, the Lever and Piston were moving as I expected.
The sliders were also moving pretty freely as well. I noticed that when assembling/disassembling the calliper, but didn't pay attention to them when Testing the handbrake lever

dapinky wrote:If it still won't work, there is a trick of removing the calliper from the hub, holding it just away from the disc, then operating the handbrake lever so that the pads move inwards to slightly beyond where they would go in operation (as the disc doesn't get in the way), then as you release the lever they move out again, but in a slightly more 'inward' place than before. You now push the calliper back over the disc and replace the bolts - try to operate the handbrake lever with the pliers again - it should now be good, or it may need to go a bit more. Only when you can get the rear discs to lock up with a small movement of the lever is it correct - then you can replace the springs and the cables and do the other side - it's actually quite a quick procedure and isn't noisy so you can do this a bit earlier in the morning :D


I understand this procedure as explained. the logic about it is to "trick" the self adjust mechanism to adjust closer to the disc than it currently does, correct?

Once again. thanks for the help everyone.
with a bit of luck, i can still get the car roadworthy tomorrow. (fingers crossed)
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
91 MR2 Turbo (import) project
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94 4Runner
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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby Tuga2112 » Sat 04.06.2016, 00:20

Correction.

Unfortunately 11/16 didnt fit

actually, I cannot recall if it fit, or was too big, but none of the imperial sized sockets fit comfortably that I felt was not going to round the edges.
1991 elan se
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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby lotusflasherman » Sat 04.06.2016, 01:49

Joao,

A few brief comments-
Bolts- The bolts that hold the caliper onto the mounting bracket are 18mm but the nut that holds the handbrake operated lever onto the adjuster screw the piston moves on is 11/16", but you only need to undo that if stripping the caliper down.

Bearings - My hubs came with new bearings but agree with Dave, I'd never mix the race and bearings between the same manufacturer but if you did one side then the other the opportunity to mix them up wouldn't occur.
Hope you set bearings up correctly - torque the nut to 20NM, (18lbf.ft) while rotating the hub to settle the bearing and then slacken it back and tighten with fingers only, or just a bit further with a tool to get a split pin in.
(MOT testers may give Advisory Note they they are slack when correctly adjusted - some even fail them. :banghead: ).

Brake adjustment - another MOT issue... make sure there is enough slack in the handbrake cable adjustment for the operating lever on the caliper to return to it's cast backstop. If the handbrake cable stops it getting there the automatic adjuster won't ever work. (MOT testers like the handbrake to work in a couple of clicks but adjusters won't work if it does.)

Disc retaining screw - countersunk crosshead screws I remove with an impact screwdriver and replace with new hex socket (allen key type) or splined socket type. Neither of those tries to reject the tool as it's turned and they don't have to be very tight anyway. As Dave says, it only holds the disc in situ when the wheels off, when it's on the disc is secured by the wheel bolts.
Phil

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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby Tuga2112 » Mon 06.06.2016, 16:39

Update.

After paying the garage 140 quid to get the emissions and handbrake sorted, the car has an MOT.
I feel ripped off, but was desperate to get the car on the road, so had to go with it.

I also have a broken driver's side lock that was working fine before i left the car there today.
Is there something i can do about this ? I mean apart from going back and complaining, I have called and they refused to admit touching the lock, is it possible to actually repair a non-funcitoning lock ?

lotusflasherman wrote:make sure there is enough slack in the handbrake cable adjustment for the operating lever on the calliper to return to it's cast backstop. If the handbrake cable stops it getting there the automatic adjuster won't ever work.


I just understood now the meaning of this. and now it all makes sense why the handbrake could not be adjusted properly.
at maximum slack the operating lever gets nowhere near the cast backstop,
I have just paid for this to be done, while i was told that the cable slack was not increased.
I need to take the wheel out to double check.

How do I adjust the slack of the cable at the handbrake end ? (is it a simple job like finding 2 nuts and twist them in the correct direction until the cable has slack ?)

I'm FURIOUS at this garage, obviously wont be back there, but the broken lock can be quite a problem to solve... :x
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
91 MR2 Turbo (import) project
94 Celica GT4 (Import)
94 4Runner
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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby lotusflasherman » Mon 06.06.2016, 18:47

Joao,

Take out the oddments tray under the centre armrest and you'll see the two handbrake cable adjusters beneath. To get at adjusters remove the centre console - 2 screws will be looking at you, the other two are hidden below the window switches which have to be removed. Then it's just a case of making sure the handbrake is completely Off and slackening the cable adjusters so the spring on the caliper can pull the piston handbrake lever against the cast backstop. (Mine wasn't working initially because a previous owner had painted the stretched spring with thick Hammerite and then Waxoyled it so the spring was too long in the relaxed position and not pulling against the backstop.)

The automatic adjuster should work now and if you operate the handbrake up and down you should feel it moving the 'bite point' down. The handbrake should operate within 7 clicks from Off.
Phil

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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby Tuga2112 » Mon 06.06.2016, 19:05

Thanks phill,

This will be my project for Saturday, till then i'll just enjoy the car as is, even tho i'm pretty sure its not as it should be.

I now have to pray for no major issues with it for the next 6 months. as its my only car running until i get the GT4. on the road.
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
91 MR2 Turbo (import) project
94 Celica GT4 (Import)
94 4Runner
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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby Tuga2112 » Mon 13.06.2016, 19:16

I had my very first "real" brakedown on the elan now.

it appears to be a failure of multiple (i think unrelated) parts.

this is all on the driver's side

to cut the situation short.
the calliper is now hanging by a replacement top bolt.

1 brake calliper mounting bolt sheared off. (bottom one)
the top mounting bolt is nowhere to be seen.
the top bolt sleeve kit is nowhere to be seen either.

The plastic bit that keep the rollbar attached to the suspension (strut assembly?) is broken
the rollbar is no longer attached at that side.

Thanks to Alan, i already have replacement bolts. also figured out the correct size and tensile strength, for them, in the meanwhile i am waiting for the others from SJ (which are no longer needed anyway.

the main consern i have at the moment is the rollbar problem. although i havent researched into it yet. so will probably be fine after a bit of googling around (fingers crossed)

UPDATE
I believe the drop link is missing. from the picture i see in here

not a big hit on the wallet from SG (probably something close to 50 quid after VAT and postage) if that is all.
will take a picture tomorow to post.

EDIT (again)
been studying a bit more and looking at the parts manual.
suspect this to be the part i need.

Image

the strange thing is that what i saw underneath the car seemed like the ball joint collapsed and broke in half.
is this at all possible from age ?
Recently the council installed speed bumps in my street. I'm concerned aiming to drive past them through the centre is the root cause of this failure.
although i cannot recall any unusual noise from when i gone past them

From SJ's website, i think the part i need is. BALL JOINT, A.R.B to LOWER LINK
Image
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
91 MR2 Turbo (import) project
94 Celica GT4 (Import)
94 4Runner
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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby Tuga2112 » Tue 14.06.2016, 18:57

I am now sure enough (95%) that the part i need is the one i posted previously from SJ the ball joint lower link. so That has been purchased as well. and when i spoke with Steve, he said estimated delivery on that for Thursday.
Theoretically, if this part arrives Thursday as well as the sleeves. I may potentially be able to still attend the WM meeting. (with a lot of wishful thinking involved)

Tomorow, after work, i will be cursing the brakes of the elan for a good while while attempting to remove the sheared bolt.

Wish me luck... or a miracle.

i took a lot of pictures, but the flash only came out on some. and only one of them actually shows the problem, it should be enough to confirm its the ball joint or not tho.

Image
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
91 MR2 Turbo (import) project
94 Celica GT4 (Import)
94 4Runner
98 Celica SR

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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby par » Tue 14.06.2016, 19:36

Yes that looks like the anti roll bar drop link that has failed.

It sounds like you have already purchased a replacement which if I recall is quite pricey. Have a look at this thread for an alternative, you might be able to get a refund:-

forum.lotuselancentral.com/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=22991
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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby dapinky » Tue 14.06.2016, 19:51

Joao,

I have seen your PM, and I'm not ignoring it (or you!) - been away for the weekend without good internet and only a phone with a low battery :(

I'll reply tomorrow with a number.

If you can cancel the order with SJ's, I can bring you a pair of the bolts on Thursday evening as referred to in the above link - then you just need to source the rod ends and M12 washers.

For a short drive you will be okay without it connected, but left hand bends will feel slightly different to right hand ones, so go steady.
Dave

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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby Tuga2112 » Tue 14.06.2016, 20:25

par wrote:Yes that looks like the anti roll bar drop link that has failed.

It sounds like you have already purchased a replacement which if I recall is quite pricey. Have a look at this thread for an alternative, you might be able to get a refund:-

forum.lotuselancentral.com/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=22991


I have only requested a quote, so not spent the money yet, although was planning to hand over the card details tomorrow morning.

Just purchased everything off Ebay. So will just have to cansel the quotation from SJ.

I am practically getting both rods replaced for the cost of one (thanks for all the information, both Dave and Par for pointing out the right place to look at)

I was going to ask what is the function of the rollbar and if i could drive with the ball joint as is, which Dave replied to while i was writting this. So i assume as long as i drive the elan like its a normal family car and (not a lotus) i should have no problems at all.

so, its all up to the sleeves delivery until im back on the road. :) lately its all be bad news, finally things seem to be turning around.
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
91 MR2 Turbo (import) project
94 Celica GT4 (Import)
94 4Runner
98 Celica SR

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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby Tuga2112 » Wed 15.06.2016, 20:40

sleeves arrived today

removing the sheared bolt was easy (lubed it well last time it was fitted :roll: )
swapped both sleeves on the calliper as well as fitting the new rubber covers.

One thing to note for anyone reading, the set i bought from brakePartsUk includes covers, but these have a diameter that is too wide to fit, so i will be running without covers for a while.


BUT.
my problems with the brakes are not over yet.
Found out one of the slider pins is bent. which in turn grinds on the brake disk, so i need to replace this (tried to bend back without any success)
also, the rear pad is worn in a odd way. so, i need new pads. which means, doing pads on the opposite side (insert tired face).

so im back on google shopping around for slider pins and pads. both seem rather cheap from my initial research using brakePartsUk, at the moment the most annoying thing is the fact that i have to wait for delivery of parts, costs are not too bad.
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
91 MR2 Turbo (import) project
94 Celica GT4 (Import)
94 4Runner
98 Celica SR

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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby Fredjohn » Wed 15.06.2016, 22:09

Try Premier Factors in Aldridge. They sell on eBay too, but you could pop round as very local. Stock EBC Mintex Monroe amongst others.
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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby Tuga2112 » Wed 15.06.2016, 22:18

Fredjohn wrote:Try Premier Factors in Aldridge. They sell on eBay too, but you could pop round as very local. Stock EBC Mintex Monroe amongst others.

Thanks John, fraid a bit too late, already ordered everything.
Pins from brakePArts and pads from eurocarParts (using a 25% discount code)

I will check Premier Factors anyway, out of curiosity.

Now im aiming to get the Elan running friday...
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
91 MR2 Turbo (import) project
94 Celica GT4 (Import)
94 4Runner
98 Celica SR

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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby dapinky » Wed 15.06.2016, 22:22

Joao,

are you going tomorrow night? - I can bring you a set of new Ferodo pads for a much better price than you're looking at :wink:
Dave

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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby Tuga2112 » Wed 15.06.2016, 22:55

dapinky wrote:Joao,

are you going tomorrow night? - I can bring you a set of new Ferodo pads for a much better price than you're looking at :wink:


Dave,

Thanks for the offer.

You put me in a dificult position, I would love to turn up to catch up with all the midlands crew BUT... Currently I am saving all the miles I can for insurance reasons. (don't want to cancel, and re-insure my car for another £300 when then Elan still got all its miles for this year to do.)

Do ferodo pads give a noticeably better brake efficiency than the brembo ones from ECP ?
if that is correct, then I will persuade my dad to "join" me in the trip, if there are no big difference I rather not bother him, after all I already paid for the ECP ones anyway.
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
91 MR2 Turbo (import) project
94 Celica GT4 (Import)
94 4Runner
98 Celica SR

too many projects. not enough sunny days :(
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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby dapinky » Thu 16.06.2016, 11:14

Joao,

the pads are great, and there are many threads on here giving various opinions on which brake products are better than others.... but for road use there will be little noticable difference.

I was making the offer mainly because I have all the bits here that you would need to get going again (pads, roll pins, even a complete calliper, a used - but servicable - bottom ball joint/antiroll bar link thingy, a set of discs if you needed them)

It isn't a "this is better than you're getting" offer, it is a "lets get you going again whilst waiting for parts" offer :D
Dave

Just the one now, but this one's mine! - and it will be finished eventually.....

go on - click this link - you know you want to!
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