Another "Small (probably not) project. 91 elan"

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Re: Another "Small (probably not) project. 91 elan"

Postby Tuga2112 » Sun 06.08.2017, 20:18

B_land wrote:Tuga2112
My clutch has failed today and looking for a clutch kit missed out on your offer to join your purchase from RA, could you confirm which kit you bought?

Thanks

Part number K7004701
It's a satch clutch kit.
Not fitted yet, but already arrived.

I'm currently reading and double reading the workshop manual to prepare for the task.
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
91 MR2 Turbo (import) project
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Re: Another "Small (probably not) project. 91 elan"

Postby B_land » Sun 06.08.2017, 22:00

Thanks Tuga2112, I've ordered hope there are no additional charges
EG S2
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Re: Another "Small (probably not) project. 91 elan"

Postby Tuga2112 » Mon 07.08.2017, 09:14

B_land wrote:Thanks Tuga2112, I've ordered hope there are no additional charges

you will likely get customs on it. at least i did.
1991 elan se
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Re: Another "Small (probably not) project. 91 elan"

Postby Tuga2112 » Sat 26.08.2017, 15:48

started to work on the clutch. or at least try.

im making slow progress and need some help.

As some people may be aware i had a hickup last week with hub nuts not wanting to break loose, this is now resolved.
im following the manual and so far Managed to:
get hub nuts out
draining the transmission fluid,
air filter box out.
Reverse switch wires disconnected.
Clutch cable unhooked
Gear shift cables (both) disconnected

Can someone tell me where to find the Speedo cable?

i think i have removed the Boost solenoid valve wires, its a little box that has 2 small tubes, one of them going into the turbo ? if it is, i got that job also done as part of removing the air filter assembly job.

Onse i have disconnected the speedo cabvle i can move in to removing the subframe. but i dont want to start on that task before the speedo cable is out in fear of damaging anything.

so, help is very welcome at this point.
Thanks
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
91 MR2 Turbo (import) project
94 Celica GT4 (Import)
94 4Runner
98 Celica SR

too many projects. not enough sunny days :(
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Re: Another "Small (probably not) project. 91 elan"

Postby dapinky » Sat 26.08.2017, 16:47

Joao,

The speedo cable is awkward to do - but not necessarily difficult - once you find it!

If you are standing at the front of the car, lean over and look right at the back of the gearbox - under the bulkhead/chasis. You will see the speedo cable entering the gearbox vertically (from the top of the box).

The cable is held in place with a small netal 'tab' (bracket?) which is usually covered in muck. The tab is held with a single bolt (10mm spanner IIRC???). You need to undo that bolt, swing the bracket away (or remove it totally) then the cable will pull out upwards. It will probably be a snug fit due to 20+ years of oil/dust/dirt/corrosion - and there isn't much slack on the cable.

As long as you apply a steady pull and keep it as aligned as possible, it'll just come out.
Dave

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Re: Another "Small (probably not) project. 91 elan"

Postby Tuga2112 » Sat 26.08.2017, 20:48

dapinky wrote:Joao,

The speedo cable is awkward to do - but not necessarily difficult - once you find it!

If you are standing at the front of the car, lean over and look right at the back of the gearbox - under the bulkhead/chasis. You will see the speedo cable entering the gearbox vertically (from the top of the box).

The cable is held in place with a small netal 'tab' (bracket?) which is usually covered in muck. The tab is held with a single bolt (10mm spanner IIRC???). You need to undo that bolt, swing the bracket away (or remove it totally) then the cable will pull out upwards. It will probably be a snug fit due to 20+ years of oil/dust/dirt/corrosion - and there isn't much slack on the cable.

As long as you apply a steady pull and keep it as aligned as possible, it'll just come out.


Thanks Dave,

I have parked up for today , tomorrow im going to double / triple check both cars for the area you mentioned and hopefully make some progress.

since i got you on the ball :P

I've read further from the manual, apparently i'm supposed to
4. Driveshafts
Mark the position of the camber adjustment eccentrics on both RH and LH front suspension top wishbones, before releasing the two bolts securing the top wishbone halves to the top ball joint.
Push the drive shafts out of the front hubs , and use a slide hammer with a forked end, or a lever between the body of each inboard C.V. joint and the transmission to 'shock' the driveshaft over the retaining circlip, and off output shaft.
Leave the driveshaft suspended in the damper yoke.

i wish more of this made sense to me. however...
my understanding is.
the 2 bolts on the top need to be removed in order for the hub to have enough free movement so the shaft can come loose.
Is this procedure easier than releasing the bottom ball joint from the suspension arm? im not sure if i should be messing with camber adjustment related bits. i have tippex at hand to mark anything before messing about with, just a bit scared of messing this up and ending up with wrong camber eating up tyres and giving me bad handling around corners.

also, the second part of the task
and use a slide hammer with a forked end, or a lever between the body of each inboard C.V. joint and the transmission to 'shock' the driveshaft over the retaining circlip, and off output shaft.
it sounds to me a similar procedure to the release of the lower ball joint from the hub. am i understanding this correctly ?
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
91 MR2 Turbo (import) project
94 Celica GT4 (Import)
94 4Runner
98 Celica SR

too many projects. not enough sunny days :(
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Re: Another "Small (probably not) project. 91 elan"

Postby dapinky » Sun 27.08.2017, 09:29

Joao,

The hub needs to swing away to allow the driveshaft to come out - there is no reason why you can't do it as per the manual (remove ball joint from wishbones), or alternatively, just undo the top ball joint / hub nut - or the bottom balljoint...... the easiest one is to release the top balljoint / hub nut and then push the top wishbones upwards and swing the hub down & round to come over the driveshaft.

The driveshaft / gearbox interface isn't hard to work out when you can see it all - basically, the shafts are held into the 'box with a spring circlip - this locates over a groove in the shaft, and expands slightly into a groove inside the gearbox housing. The circlip needs to be compressed a bit to release it from the groove in the box, and it stays on the driveshaft.....

..... I managed to do it with 2 large screwdrivers (chisels / prybars / crowbars will do the job if you can get them in) - place them with the tips between the driveshaft (there is a bit of a flange) and the gearbox on opposite sides of the shaft and give them a bit of a shock/push - this will lever/jar the shaft outwards, compressing the circlip...

.... then they just pull out.
Dave

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Re: Another "Small (probably not) project. 91 elan"

Postby Fredjohn » Sun 27.08.2017, 10:39

Double reminder to note exactly orientation of the 2 outside shims and also the location of the 8 shims in between the top ball joint and wishbones. As Dave says, once the suspension is dismantled the shaft has room to come out of the hub.

As in manual don't try to pull the shaft out, it'll come apart. Use levers and suitable hammer as per Dave above.
To cheer you up it took me 2hrs to get the speedo drive out. Second time only 10secs once the small clamp is slid round. As per manual leave the retaining bolt in, just slide the tab round off the speedo casing.
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Re: Another "Small (probably not) project. 91 elan"

Postby Tuga2112 » Sun 27.08.2017, 10:59

Fredjohn wrote:Double reminder to note exactly orientation of the 2 outside shims and also the location of the 8 shims in between the top ball joint and wishbones. As Dave says, once the suspension is dismantled the shaft has room to come out of the hub.

As in manual don't try to pull the shaft out, it'll come apart. Use levers and suitable hammer as per Dave above.
To cheer you up it took me 2hrs to get the speedo drive out. Second time only 10secs once the small clamp is slid round. As per manual leave the retaining bolt in, just slide the tab round off the speedo casing.


Thanks for the motivational speech Jon. After I located the Speedo cable. I think it took me about an hour to get it off.

I had to remove the air intake pipe that feeds the butterfly valve and I also removed the water reservoir.
After those 2 were off, access was relatively easy

10mm bolt as per Dave's memory. Although I have fully removed it, which may or may not prove to be a problem later.

I'm not particularly worried because I'm confident I can align it back with the magnet extension I have.

I'm currently looking to start phase 3 to revive the subframe
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
91 MR2 Turbo (import) project
94 Celica GT4 (Import)
94 4Runner
98 Celica SR

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Re: Another "Small (probably not) project. 91 elan"

Postby dapinky » Sun 27.08.2017, 11:52

Tuga2112 wrote:...... Although I have fully removed it, which may or may not prove to be a problem later.

I'm not particularly worried because I'm confident I can align it back with the magnet extension I have.


It won't be a problem, as you are removing the gearbox to do the clutch - so you can simply clean up the area when it's out and losely refit the tab and bolt before replacing the gearbox. then when you need to refit the cable, swing it away, push in cable, swing it back and do up the bolt - simple job when it's all clean and visible!
Dave

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Re: Another "Small (probably not) project. 91 elan"

Postby Tuga2112 » Sun 27.08.2017, 12:04

Subframe is out now, feeling pretty happy with the progress.
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
91 MR2 Turbo (import) project
94 Celica GT4 (Import)
94 4Runner
98 Celica SR

too many projects. not enough sunny days :(
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Re: Another "Small (probably not) project. 91 elan"

Postby lotusflasherman » Sun 27.08.2017, 13:27

Tuga2112 wrote:I've read further from the manual, apparently i'm supposed to
4. Driveshafts
Mark the position of the camber adjustment eccentrics on both RH and LH front suspension top wishbones, before releasing the two bolts securing the top wishbone halves to the top ball joint.
Push the drive shafts out of the front hubs , and use a slide hammer with a forked end, or a lever between the body of each inboard C.V. joint and the transmission to 'shock' the driveshaft over the retaining circlip, and off output shaft.
Leave the driveshaft suspended in the damper yoke.

i wish more of this made sense to me. however...
my understanding is.
the 2 bolts on the top need to be removed in order for the hub to have enough free movement so the shaft can come loose.
Is this procedure easier than releasing the bottom ball joint from the suspension arm? im not sure if i should be messing with camber adjustment related bits. i have tippex at hand to mark anything before messing about with, just a bit scared of messing this up and ending up with wrong camber eating up tyres and giving me bad handling around corners.


Have you checked you have the early eccentric hex head bolts? It's the inner bolt that has the eccentric shoulder under the head. Got the impression they were phased out about the time the Anti-lift angle on the rear was reduced so only a couple of hundred made using that system. If they are socket head bolts it will have adjustment plates. Section CE.3 (Front Suspension) shows the early eccentric hex head bolts were replaced by socket head bolts with adjustment plates but the Section on Driveshafts was never revised to reflect that - the plates need to go back where they came from so it would have been useful to have included that info'. Agree with Fredjohn - don't just throw them all in a box.

Either way, don't worry - my local Lotus people, Hanger 111, only charged me £25 for a full geometry check, plus a bit for adjusting the track rod and rechecking geo'. If you do have the 'eccentric bolts' you can mark it with tippex to put it back how it was but it may already be wrong because a previous owner has messed with it. I'm sure you can find somewhere local to do a 'geo check' - be a good idea to have the car checked anyway, particularly if you don't know the history of your car.
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Re: Another "Small (probably not) project. 91 elan"

Postby Tuga2112 » Sun 27.08.2017, 14:03

Thanks Phill.

Bad news is. My bolts are hex ones, not to mention I need to swap them because the Allen key I used to try and turn them with ended up rounding them.
Luckily the air hammer did the job of taking them out. And the nuts did came out before the bolts rounded

I have only got one side out so far. And I lost the measurements when undoing the bolts as only after they were out I realised where I was supposed to make the markings.

I'm willing to pay that fee for the job, seems actually a very fair price. So I guess I'll just make sure to count the shins on each side and then put it back together. Let the professionals deal with the adjustment
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
91 MR2 Turbo (import) project
94 Celica GT4 (Import)
94 4Runner
98 Celica SR

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Re: Another "Small (probably not) project. 91 elan"

Postby lotusflasherman » Sun 27.08.2017, 15:31

:smt017 The early eccentric hex' bolts had a conventional male hex' head that used a spanner or socket on it. Check the manual pictures ...
If you used an Allen Key then it sounds like you've got the later Socket Head Bolts (the Socket is a female hex') and those use the adjustment plates so not necessary to mark it's position.

wishbone bolts.JPG


With any bolt & nut it's 'good practice' to hold the bolt and turn the nut using a hex socket, not a bi-hex. Once the nut has turned a bit the bolt may need to be held to stop it turning but that won't cause much damage to the head.
Front suspension bolts can be rusted pretty tight in the ball joint casting and after the nut is loosened may need tapping free. If you try to start by turning the bolt before the nut is released, or it's tapped free, it can damage the head.
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Re: Another "Small (probably not) project. 91 elan"

Postby Tuga2112 » Sun 27.08.2017, 15:35

Phill,

just read your message.
your right, i did have some shims there that all i had to worry about was their orientation.
i will re-read your comments about best practice ref undoing bolts/nuts.

what happened to my bolts was the nut part came out without need to even put a alen key on the bolt side. but when i was trying to remove the bolt, i used the alen key to free up the bolt from the mounting but the thing was soo rusted in place that the female hex rounded out.

i ended up using a air hammer to free it up. but it took quite some time persuading it. i did put the nut back in before using the hammer in order to avoid damaging the trheads at the edge. but bottom line is that i will be replacing those bolts instead of going back in.

As a side note. removing the brake caliper helped a lot with the axle, as tbe brake fluid line was making the job harder, without the caliper in place it was a breeze to get the shaft free.

im looking for the said circlip that i need to free up to remove the driveshafts.
no idea what is it. or what its looks like. i cant see anyhting that should be pulled apart using screwdrivers. so i need help there.

heres pictures of what i can see,

apologies for no question marks, capitalization or braces etc, my shift key is playing up, i need to reboot the pc

Image
Image
Image
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
91 MR2 Turbo (import) project
94 Celica GT4 (Import)
94 4Runner
98 Celica SR

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Re: Another "Small (probably not) project. 91 elan"

Postby peter123 » Sun 27.08.2017, 16:32

Have a look at this youtube video, there's other videos by the same person, also one on suspension rebuild.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcWVc3E ... freload=10
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Re: Another "Small (probably not) project. 91 elan"

Postby Tuga2112 » Sun 27.08.2017, 16:59

peter123 wrote:Have a look at this youtube video, there's other videos by the same person, also one on suspension rebuild.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcWVc3E ... freload=10


Thanks.

i was not expecting the driveshaft to come out with such crude tecnique
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
91 MR2 Turbo (import) project
94 Celica GT4 (Import)
94 4Runner
98 Celica SR

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Re: Another "Small (probably not) project. 91 elan"

Postby dapinky » Sun 27.08.2017, 17:20

Joao,

If you are replacing the bolts, note that the inner and outer ones are different lengths - so you will need 2 x M8x70 & 2 x M8x85........

....also, make sure that they are HT bolts (10.9 minimum, but 12.9 are better) - NOT 'standard' HT bolts of 8.8 rating.

Usually, hex headed bolts are 8.8, and the higher strengths are allen headed bolts. (but you can get any configuration if you look hard enough and/or get them made).

Something like thesewill be good or these(and if you can't find 85mm ones, then 80 will probably do)
Dave

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go on - click this link - you know you want to!
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Re: Another "Small (probably not) project. 91 elan"

Postby Tuga2112 » Sun 27.08.2017, 21:32

dapinky wrote:Joao,

If you are replacing the bolts, note that the inner and outer ones are different lengths - so you will need 2 x M8x70 & 2 x M8x85........

....also, make sure that they are HT bolts (10.9 minimum, but 12.9 are better) - NOT 'standard' HT bolts of 8.8 rating.

Usually, hex headed bolts are 8.8, and the higher strengths are allen headed bolts. (but you can get any configuration if you look hard enough and/or get them made).

Something like thesewill be good or these(and if you can't find 85mm ones, then 80 will probably do)


Thanks Dave,

I did notice there was 2 different sizes.

I became aware higher tensile strenght bolts are "always" hex/allen key ones when i was in a pickle with the bolts for the front caliper. (remember ? :lol: )

I have now packed up for today. good progress i think, although any garage owner would probably tell me to find a career elsewhere.

So far i have managed to
remove the underframe. (will be giving it a good clean at some point before going back in. )
remove both driveshafts (one came out easily using a crowbar and hammer, the one on the side of the transmission i used a ball joint splitter (fork) and also managed to get it out.
jackshaft is out (by far the easiest task of the day)
downpipe is loose, and i also removed one of the rubber mountings so that it can move further down.

I did not release the anti roll bar, as from the manual, its suposed to come out to allow the downpipe to move freely, but since its not in the way, i think its a missprint.

what i need help with at the moment is actually to know "where" to put the floor jack to hold the engine/transmission before starting to undo the left and rear engine mounts.
looking at it it seems like the only suitable places are to hold the transmission itself. but then after taking the transmission out i would have the engine being held by a single mount which sounds very wrong.

apart from that, i need to investigate where are exactly all the bolts that i need to remove in the next few steps. but i suspect there is enough information out there about it already.
1991 elan se
1991 elan se project
91 MR2 Turbo (import) project
94 Celica GT4 (Import)
94 4Runner
98 Celica SR

too many projects. not enough sunny days :(
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Re: Another "Small (probably not) project. 91 elan"

Postby Brit-Car-Nut » Sun 27.08.2017, 23:19

Tuga2112 wrote:Thanks Dave,

I did notice there was 2 different sizes.

I became aware higher tensile strength bolts are "always" hex/allen key ones when i was in a pickle with the bolts for the front caliper. (remember ? :lol: )


Not trying to cause any grief, but they make high tensile strength bolts in hex head too. They will have marks or numbers on the head that denote the strength.

For the record, High tensile strength bolts have great clamping strength but they are also much more brittle and they will shear instead of bend (like the lower grade bolts) when something tries to bend them (hitting a ditch at the side of the road is a good example as it will usually try to push the suspension rearward which often shears the bolt instead of bending it).
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