Custom Rear Hubs, Bearings & Discs

[theelanman]

Aluminium Alloy // Commercial Alloy // 2014A T6511 - 2014A T6511

composition

Silicon (Si) 0.50 - 2.10
Iron (Fe) 0.0 - 0.70
Copper (Cu) 3.90 - 5.00
Zinc (Zn) 0.0 - 0.25
Manganese (Mn) 0.40 - 1.00
Magnesium (Mg) 0.20 - 0.80
Titanium (Ti) 0.0 - 0.15
Others (Total) 0.0 - 0.15
Aluminium (Al) Balance
Physical Property Value
Density 2.82 g/cm³
Modulus of Elasticity 71 GPa
Electrical Resistivity 0.045 x10^-6 Ω .m
Thermal Conductivity 138 W/m.K
Thermal Expansion 23 x10^-6 /K
Melting Point 535 °C
Mechanical Property Value
Elongation 6 Min %
Tensile Strength 415 Min MPa
Proof Stress 370 Min MPa

Properties above are for material in the T6511 condition. Please note that the requirements of T6511 vary with dimension (diameter or thickness) - The with minimum proof and tensile being up to 440 and 490 respectively for some dimensions.A high strength 4 to 5% Copper alloy produced in extruded bar and profile form, in the fully heat-treated condition (solution heat-treated & artificially aged).Normally stocked in the T6511 condition (stress relieved by controlled stretching) Except for sizes under 10mm diameter and over 203.2mm diameter. (T6 only). Over 203.mm diameter is manufactured to chemical composition Only.
Machinability of aluminium alloy 2014A is very good.
Typical applications of aluminium alloy 2014A are high strength componenets especially for use in the aerospace and defence industries.

Temper Types
This datasheet relates to temper T6511. The most common temper for aluminium alloy 2014A are:

T6 - Solution heat treated and artificially aged
T3 - Solution heat treated, cold worked and naturally aged
T6511 - Solution heat treated and stress-relieved by stretching then artificially aged with minor straightening after aging - Equivalent to T4 condition
Supplied Forms
Round Bar is stocked in the range 1/2inch to 10inch diameter.
Plate is stokced in thicknesses 1/2inch to 4 inch.

Bar
Plate
Corrosion Resistance
Resistance to atmospheric attack:

Poor, especially when exposed to water or salt

Environments.

To protect against atmospheric corrosion

in storage, lightly coat with Lanolin based protective

Oil.

For further information, please contact Sales Dept

Weldability
Brazing & Soldering - Not recommended

Oxygen - Not recommended

Inert Gas - Not recommended

Resistance, Spot, Beam - Excellent

Surface Treatment
Anodising

- Protective - Fair

- Bright - Unsuitable

- Hard - Good

- Colour - Fair (Dark colour only)

.

Plating

- Very Good

[theelanman]

the BS970 carbon steel tells me nothing.....as it a BS for low carbon steels....
which grade are they using?

[Jeemy]

Its same as before and I am guessing EN8 but I don't have time to skim all Bob's threads to see if he ever said; I have requested the info directly from them so I can update you today I hope.

[Brit-Car-Nut]

It would seem that you would not want to use the Aluminium Alloy // Commercial Alloy // 2014A T6511 - 2014A T6511 since it has horrible Corrosion Resistance:

Resistance to atmospheric attack:
Poor, especially when exposed to water or salt Environments.

To protect against atmospheric corrosion in storage, lightly coat with Lanolin based protective Oil.

This doesn't sound like a good choice for any part living under the car and in high contact with corrosive elements (UK rain and air). Coating with paint or powdercoat would still have issues as it is not difficult to chip or scratch those coatings.

Aluminium Alloy // Commercial Alloy // 6082 - T4 doesn't have those contradictions but there was no mention of corrosion in the listing.

Common Uses:

~ Highly stressed applications
~ Trusses
~ Bridges
~ Cranes
~ Transport applications - does this mean in auto and car components?
~ Ore skips
~ Beer barrels - If you use this alloy, will the hubs come with an extra pint or two?
~ Milk churns

I will try to weigh one of my BB hubs without bearings and a basic, solid disc as well as one of my used, stock brake discs so you can get an idea as to the weights involved.

I thought a LOT of hubs had been made and used. Doesn't anyone using them have comments or warnings OR PRAISE?

[Elanlover]

I thought a LOT of hubs had been made and used. Doesn't anyone using them have comments or warnings OR PRAISE?

Bob did a custom config for my brakes (larger to accommodate the 17" wheels) which included hubs and hats to mount the rotors. Although the car doesn't get driven more than about 3,000km a year I've had no issues whatsoever and no signs of corrosion. I've no idea what they were made from in terms of aluminum type but when I read some of the comments here I start to get worried about fatigue, etc. Not sure why I should worry really since, to be frank, I've trusted Bob's experience in designing elements and choosing materials.

[Jeemy]

I'd guess the cheaper aluminium is anodised. Truth be told they are a massive firm and far too busy with giant 6-figure orders to really go into massive detail for me especially as this is a proven product they've already made. I will check this query too but if there are any more questions can I please have them befpre Monday morning as I don't want to piss the guy off......one more emIl won't hurt.

[paul27848]

Hello Jamie,
please include me for a pair of *CARBON STEEL HUBS*.

Regards, Paul

PS - Did you find the fitting instructions you mentioned for the short shift kit you sent me?

[Jeemy]

Yes mate, i thought i'd asked you to gve me your email so i could send it over!?

[paul27848]

Hi Jamie,
thought you had got it because of our previous correspondance, but equally my email adress has changed in the last few days. It is now pjwinn65@gmail.com

Best regards, Paul

[Jeemy]

oh mate sorry, i'm barely keeping it together just now, working 16-20 hours a day. it probably was. expect an email shortly.

[paul27848]

Hi Jamie,
no problem, if I had a fractuon of your confidence/ability I'd be delighted. For me every issue is pay someone at a mind numbing rate. In that case 2 M100's is a bad choice, but I love Lotus cars, Had an original Elan Sprint in the 1970's. Nearly bankrupted me, went like hell when working properly but went out of tune between runs. As far as I can rememberv I sold it for £1500 in about 1972. Todays values £15k - £30K..

Regards, Paul

[steve matthews]

Wow, thanks Elanman who would of thought that the 2014 Alum would only have
.20 - .80 Magnesium, when the 6082 has .60 - 1.20. Can you believe it.

Still would like to know the weight savings.

Jeemy please put me down for 6082 Alum. hub please.
Bearings and disks I will source myself.

Steve

[Jeemy]

I'll definitely get the weights for you Steve and the precise carbon-steel material grade. And anything else that is asked. But no offence to anybody concerned I'm going to cut questions and make it a take it or leave it situation from Monday....


*CARBON STEEL HUBS*
Hubs (pair) £130.48
Bearings (pair, seals & fitting) £36
Shipping & packing £10
Total cost: £176.48
1. Jeemy
2. Nobby
3. theelanman
4.tb10 (N/A)
5.tb10 (S2 #790)
6.tb10 (S2 #711)
7. Nippy
8. Propshaft
9. davidcgriffiths
10. Karl Martin
11. lansledj
12. djcar
13. Rambo - when available will have a to East Lothian and pick up in person
14. ESM
15.paulsmithmk
16.paul27848
17.
18.
19.
20.

*ALUMINIUM 2014 HUBS*
Hubs (pair) £129.57
Bearings (pair, seals & fitting) £36
Shipping & packing £10
Total cost: £175.57
1. Jeemy
2.
3.
4.
5.

*ALUMINIUM 6082 HUBS*
Hubs (pair) £108.57
Bearings (pair, seals & fitting) £36
Shipping & packing £10
Total cost: £154.57
1. Steve Matthews (no bearings)
2.
3.
4.
5.

[m100sandra]

Ill go for a set of alu hubs, but confused with the two alu options?

[Jeemy]

The standard aluminium 6082 is cheap and works fine. This was what was used on the VERY first round (preproduction, the first production run was steel due to member concerns).

But given the concerns (whether real or not) put forward about aluminium hubs in the first round of this Group Buy, prompting the move to steel, he has proposed a higher tensile F1/aerospace alloy 2014 as an alternative. Its similar in strength and price to steel but lighter (how much so, I am to establish at Steve's request if possible). I hope to have this info Monday.

[Karl Martin]

Jeemy,

I would like to change to the highest quality aluminium (less unsprung weight is always better) but I am a little confused as to what you have said above ref quality against price.

You said the standard aluminium 2014 is cheap and works fine at a total cost of £175.57, but higher tensile F1/aerospace alloy 6082 comes in at £154.57, which is cheaper, or, (no offence) have you made an error and got the price the wrong way around ?

[m100sandra]

Jeemy,

I would like to change to the highest quality aluminium (less unsprung weight is always better) but I am a little confused as to what you have said above ref quality against price.

You said the standard aluminium 2014 is cheap and works fine at a total cost of £175.57, but higher tensile F1/aerospace alloy 6082 comes in at £154.57, which is cheaper, or, (no offence) have you made an error and got the price the wrong way around ?

I was thinking the same.....

[GeoffSmith]

The standard aluminium 2014 is cheap and works fine. This was what was used on the VERY first round.

NO IT WAS NOT!

I had the first production sets of hubs, they are steel, they aren't that heavy and they are brilliant. There was a lot of discussion behind the scenes between Bob and at least two professional mechanical engineers and the consensus was that they should not be aluminium (even with threaded inserts) on safety grounds. On that basis I implore you not to proceed with the aluminium options unless you are willing to accept responsibility for their suitability for road use.

[Jeemy]

Jeemy CORRECTLY SHOULD HAVE wrote:
The standard aluminium 6082 is cheap and works fine. This was what was used on the VERY first round.

My mistake, I mixed up 6082 and 2014 in the very last post. Not in any of the others. I've corrected it in this quote and in that post. Over and over again I got the terms correct. So the only place its left incorrect is where Geoff, Karl, Sandra quoted me. I really don't have time for checking the whole thread right now.....

Firstly, I was told that they've produced aluminium hubs for Bob but then changed to steel for the first 'production' run.

Secondly, Alan_C told me he had a run of the pre-production hubs, made in aluminium and has had them on his car for 3 years. Richard has told me that they've used aluminium for multiple hubs on multiple cars. And that aluminium was what was used for this preproduction run. Sorry, Alan to bring your name into this.

The ONLY reason I'm investigating the aluminium is because I was asked to both to get the cost and the weight down.

The ONLY reason I'm now working with the supplier who aren't as quick about providing detailed technical specs is because I was moaned at about the cost from the previous supplier who did.

So the only question that leaves is whats the problem with what I've done, Geoff? I'm repeating verbatim info that was given to me. What I've said is true. I made a mistake in a technical detail in one post (all the other posts are consistent, and I apologise for the mistake), but what you've said is contradictory to what I was told.

There was a lot of discussion behind the scenes between Bob and at least two professional mechanical engineers and the consensus was that they should not be aluminium (even with threaded inserts) on safety grounds.

I've already mentioned this several times. I'm well aware of it. 2 professional mechanical engineers have told ME that aluminium with hardened threads is suitable for use, and there is no issue with this on safety or any other grounds, and that they reduce curb weight, but that if you take a kerb it could buckle the hub as well as the wheel on the 6082, the 2014 is similar in strength to the steel. Buckle, not snap. Like alloy wheels. I think the assumption is that aluminium is "brittle" - it depends on the alloy and all I can do is go with what I am advised.

We've seen tons of evidence of aluminium hubs being used on other vehicles. I looked around and mainly saw it being used in rally cars, fords, boy racers, spacers etc but I've also seen it used in trucks. Hi-Spec make aluminium hubs! Whether thats good or bad, you tell me......also, I've seen 4-to 5-stud PCD spacers made of 6082. Now thats a LOT of stress on a thin piece. But they are using it, quite happily.

I'll be perfectly plain. I DON'T CARE what material they are made of. I don't care whether we just go for steel. At this point, I don't care if I even proceed with it with attitude like that floating around. Everybody else cares about getting them cheap, getting the info and so thats what I'm doing. The aluminium is a cheaper option and I personally trust the guy who produced the same hubs you already have on your car, who does this day in day out. I appreciate others might not and so I am TRYING to get this info as quick as poss.

Geoff, you had the first production set of steel hubs - the first Group Buy on LEC. Alan the first pre-production items, produced by these same guys. The VERY first run (like I said) they did was produced in aluminium. Then before production, the material was changed to steel due to these concerns. Whether these concerns are grounded in reality or by people who are set in their ways, its not my place to say.

The engineers produced them in aluminium not only for Bob but for lots of other people, according to them. Bob has produced them for rally & road cars for years before doing these, according to what I was told.

I've made it brutally plain, I'm not an engineer, nor do I claim to be. Are you? Do you know for a fact aluminium is not suitable for road use? Or is it just for Elans? Because maybe somebody should tell all the people producing hubs from it? And indeed wheels.....

This is the most concise summary I read:

Aluminum is lighter than steel, per unit volume, by a factor of three.
Aluminum is more flexible than steel, at the same thickness, by a factor of three.
The yield point, or 'strength' as most people interpret it, can be nearly the same for wrought aluminum and wrought steel.
So, if stiffness governs the design, neither metal has an advantage.
If strength governs the design, it could go either way, depending on how much flexibility is allowed, and the specific alloy and temper of the aluminum, and the specific alloy and temper of the steel.

I make no claim that the above is from a reputable source.

I fully assert the hubs I am trying to organise a group buy on, are from a reputable source and they say there is no issue with aluminium hubs with hardened inserts.

I'm STILL not prepared to accept responsibility for their suitability for road use.

When Rusty put a disclaimer on the hoops saying there is no responsibility accepted or inferences made for their safety, thats acceptable, but I am expected to jump through, ahaha, hoops to provide the safety & load rating info for these?? Which I don't mind, but can people not have a little patience?

I'm just trying to get these back into production.

I'm trying to do it, but aside from one mistake all I've done is spend time reporting back what I've been told. Discussion on this is fine, but rudeness is not, in my book.

Maybe thats just your way. I'm happy to go with only steel, I'm happy to go with steel and both types aluminium, I'm trying to get the most data I can on safety & info & so forth at you guys' request and trying to get them as cheap as everybody wanted. I'm also happy to pull out of the whole thing. I'm not happy to be 'yelled at'.

So what do I do? Cut the aluminium options? Clearly nobody can be patient until I get the info down from the engineers. This is obviously the problem faced last time and the reason alu hubs were cut. I can't be bothered with it so you tell me.....

[RayD]

Jamie,

You're doing a great job.

None of the various versions of aluminium hubs that Bob proposed on the forum were suitable.

It is unlikely any of them were made.

If anyone has M100 aluminium hubs fitted they are not "Bobs"

If Alan has them I can only think the firm separately came up with something.

Ray