Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group buy?

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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby Karl Martin » Mon 29.07.2013, 12:21

Rip,

“I much prefer the look of the LGM design, but my mechanics were far less impressed, sighting the lack of support and chassis attachments.”

I think what they were referring to was that the SPS design is attached to numerous more structural points (which they classed as ‘chassis’) and where they were attached are more comprehensively than the LGM hoops, such as far more extensive fixtures to the B pillar and bracing to the rear suspension mounts etc.

However, the fact that Steve believes the LGM hoops to be SCCA approved for track West coast and they are now NASA approved on the East coast means they are accredited. You do not have test to destruction to get approval....many roll cages used in historical car racing are officially approved in the UK, yet you will not see a £100 000 E-Type Jag tested to destruction to prove the point!

I certainly understand why James doesn’t want to chop up the Elan to fit the SPS hoops and wants to keep the car as original as possible, a reason why everything I do can be returned to stock, if necessary and why any modifications I have done (and there’s been quite a few!) do not drastically alter the appearance (another reason why I keep to the original wheels).

However, another point to consider is the overall height of the hoops. In the event of rolling over, you have to consider which parts of the car are going to support the weight of the car. I think we all agree that the windscreen and any GRP bodywork is going to collapse, so it will probably be the top of the dash/engine/front suspension mounts in unison that will hold up. So you now have to draw a line from the top of your hoops to these points. If your head is above this line, you are in trouble. (It’s the reason why my mechanics are in favour of overhead and windscreen support).

(F1 team owner Frank Williams was in a saloon car which rolled over, where the roof deforming tapped his head only by a fraction of an inch, causing a compression of one of the vertebrae in his neck and yet this unfortunately has caused him to spend the rest of his life as a quadriplegic :cry: )

All of this is made worse by the standard OEM three point inertia safety belts allowing you to slide, before being held in place, although you can buy safety belts that can be pulled tight without moving, which may be more of a pain to use, but a lot easier than the full race systems: http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/motorspor ... 4m-harness )

As I understand it, the SPS design are mounted further forward than the LGM design, which gives them the advantage of being able to be higher, due to being further clear of the hood mechanism.

Rusty said “Besides, Elans are cheap to buy, and there are plenty of good original ones left - in the UK, at least.”

Really :? :?: :!:

When I started looking four years ago, there were more available and were a fare bit cheaper, for their given mileage and condition.

An equivalent MGF or MX5 are 1/3 of the price of an Elan!
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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby theelanman » Mon 29.07.2013, 12:47

Karl Martin wrote:However, the fact that Steve believes the LGM hoops to be SCCA approved for track West coast and they are now NASA approved on the East coast means they are accredited.



:shock:

really....Im sure LGM would probably not agree.....
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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby Elanlover » Mon 29.07.2013, 12:55

theelanman wrote: :shock:

really....Im sure LGM would probably not agree.....


I agree that she would not agree.

When she designed and hade them built they were never tested. So, unless someone's offered up their Elan as a sacrificial goat to get flipped upside down I doubt they've been certified. Also, looking at how they attach, there's no way they would get certified. They have only one mounting point connected to the chassis. While strong enough to offer some aid in the event of a rollover that's not going to be enough to pass certification.
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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby Karl Martin » Mon 29.07.2013, 13:20

Umm....”You do not have test to destruction to get approval....many roll cages used in historical car racing are officially approved in the UK, yet you will not see a £100 000 E-Type Jag tested to destruction to prove the point!”

This begs the question then, why did the SCCA approve the LGM hoops for track West coast and why are they now NASA approved on the East coast, if they are not worthy?
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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby Elanlover » Mon 29.07.2013, 13:27

Karl Martin wrote: Umm....”You do not have test to destruction to get approval....many roll cages used in historical car racing are officially approved in the UK, yet you will not see a £100 000 E-Type Jag tested to destruction to prove the point!”


Actually, most cars are routinely "destroyed" for crash test approvals. We've all seen videos of crash test dummies getting the snot knocked out of them. :twisted:

Karl Martin wrote:This begs the question then, why did the SCCA approve the LGM hoops for track West coast and why are they now NASA approved on the East coast, if they are not worthy?


Who says its approved? Where's the documentation? Some guy saying they are approved doesn't mean they are. I'd be very surprised if they are approved - from both the perspective of them meeting standards and just being plain happy knowing they'll do the intended job! :-D
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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby steve matthews » Mon 29.07.2013, 13:29

Approved as opposed to certified.
I think they let them go because they meet the Minimum requirements?

I agree they are not 6 point rigid frame mounted only Phill"s car has that.

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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby theelanman » Mon 29.07.2013, 13:35

Karl Martin wrote:This begs the question then, why did the SCCA approve the LGM hoops for track West coast and why are they now NASA approved on the East coast, if they are not worthy?


excellent question.......don't know is the answer.....
reading the posts it suggests shaking them a bit to see if they were firm enough....
I'm guessing his was the test to make sure they didn't fall off whilst you were driving rather than a validation of 'roll over-ness'
these affirmations on the hoop have been done a track......my guess is that they presume you'd fit something structural rather than decorative as its your life your playing with....and therefore your own fault if they don't work.......

as for the E type version...they have hard tops anyway....the hoops are internal and are usually welded to more metal...
we have a central chassis which is a challenge in itself trying to get loads and shear forces to be resisted by something which has few point of contact and has been made to fit the existing......if you were to take a chassis...put a cage on...then build up the bodywork it'd be a damn site easier.....
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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby Karl Martin » Mon 29.07.2013, 13:43

Elanlover, I’m not picking a fight here, but, I don’t know of any historical cars that have been tested to destruction to prove a roll cage, (or anything for that matter) yet the cages are still certified.
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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby Elanlover » Mon 29.07.2013, 13:48

Karl Martin wrote:Elanlover, I’m not picking a fight here, but, I don’t know of any historical carsthat have been teased to destruction to prove a roll cage, (or anything for that matter) yet the cages are still certified.


Me neither and you're right I believe :-D I've never had anything on the car certified but I believe they examine the designs of the hoops and the mounting points, etc. then give it a pass or fail. Obviously, anything that's stock on the car doesn't need to be examined - just the aftermarket stuff. I wasn't suggesting a car need to be flipped over to get a pass (even though, looking back, it reads like I did). I was metaphorically implying that there's a process that's fairly involved to get certification, not just a quick look.

Regardless, I'd still like to see where the SCCA has passed it for track use if at all. It'd be great if they did but I just find it hard to believe with a single chassis mounting point. :shock:
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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby Rusty Wishbone » Mon 29.07.2013, 13:53

This discussion seems to be rather academic since there is no ongoing supply that I am aware of of either the SPC hoops or the LGM hoops. It is, therefore impossible to choose one over the other. I am trying to put a group buy together of the SPC hoops.
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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby theelanman » Mon 29.07.2013, 14:03

Rusty Wishbone wrote:This discussion seems to be rather academic since there is no ongoing supply that I am aware of of either the SPC hoops or the LGM hoops. It is, therefore impossible to choose one over the other. I am trying to put a group buy together of the SPC hoops.



so how did the LGM versions get a mention....maybe a change of title....... :D
itd take the debate out of it........ :D
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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby Karl Martin » Mon 29.07.2013, 14:12

Rusty, I am trying to convice people to join your list by dicussing the necessity and integrity of the SPS hoops :wink: :-D

(I was at one point thinking of borrowing an LGM hoop and trying to get them replicated as a one off, with the permission of Marie and if anybody might also be interested, just before you started this group buy. I really like the look of them and the ease of installation, but I have to admit that the SPS hoops are looking to be a better product )
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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby Karl Martin » Mon 29.07.2013, 14:16

LGM vs SPS.....some people might like to change over for increased numbers?
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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby Rusty Wishbone » Mon 29.07.2013, 15:51

Karl Martin wrote:Rusty, I am trying to convice people to join your list by dicussing the necessity and integrity of the SPS hoops


Oh! OK, let the battle recommence!
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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby paulous » Tue 30.07.2013, 00:04

Please can someone post a pic of the LGM hoops?

The main thing putting me off the SPC hoops is the fitting time effort and cost as I'd have to pay to getthem fitted. If the LGM ones look better and can be fitted a lot easier then I think I'd be interested.
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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby Rusty Wishbone » Mon 26.08.2013, 22:39

I was hoping that I would get to see an Elan with hoops at Brands Hatch on Sunday. Sadly none in the LEC area had them, so I have still not set my eyes on them.

Anyway, with summer drawing to a close, I wonder if anyone else is looking to join the hoop buy to give themselves an Autumn/winter project?
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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby lotusgirlmarie » Mon 26.08.2013, 23:15

Honestly I was doing my best to avoid threads on roll hoops as the 100 or so I built was nightmarish though an accomplished feeling after completion. I lost a lot of $$ on the project in the end but that wasn't the point of it all. I did it for the principal and to help in the event of roll. It was also designed to be as minimally intrusive into the interior and to have as minimal cutting done to the bodywork 'Nuff on that, should anyone wish to reinforce the design I did, its very easy to attach a pair of L bend high carbon steel brackets between the B pillars from the U sections of the hoops. Again, minimally intrusive while adding significantly to the lateral strength during impact. I was developing this retrofit and got sidetracked by life.

If you do want a full on roll setup, bottom line, it will be very intrusive and invasive. I've seen quite a few of the various roll bar setups and every one has compromises made of one sort or another. It all depends on what was wanted and what you were willing to give up. Honestly, if I had it to do over again, I may have gone a slightly different route but, not not too far from what was done. I really do look forward to seeing the end result of the develpiements and wish you the very best in your endeavors. It is a massive undertaking to be sure.
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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby rip » Tue 27.08.2013, 15:22

Interesting to hear your view on this, Marie.
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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby Rusty Wishbone » Tue 27.08.2013, 22:04

Thanks for your comments, Marie.

I firstly have to admit to having been unaware of your hoops when I kicked this thing off, but was aware of the Kuching Design. Having spoken to Simon, I felt happy that his design was not only strong, but practically possible to fit without welding. I've no idea whether yours or his are likely to be stronger.

While I have a technical background, I certainly don't have any intention to develop the Kuching design because I wouldn't know how to improve it. As it is, the cost of the hoops is quite significant, although I think that they are good value compared with similar structures for other cars.
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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby rip » Tue 27.08.2013, 23:25

Rusty Wishbone wrote:Thanks for your comments, Marie.

I firstly have to admit to having been unaware of your hoops when I kicked this thing off, but was aware of the Kuching Design. Having spoken to Simon, I felt happy that his design was not only strong, but practically possible to fit without welding. I've no idea whether yours or his are likely to be stronger.

I have a set of Marie's hoops so can describe them a little.
They have 3 mount points: 1 to the centre chassis & 1 each side to some metal frames. Each fixing is held by a pair of bolts. Some drilling is required but definitely no welding.
The metalwork itself is a lot thicker than the SPK one. The SPK one has a lot more fixings though.
Marie mentions some compromises. There is very little clearance with the roof & they do interfere with the roof's frame when raising & lowering it. I've tried to adjust these forwards but they are touching the bulkhead as it is. If there were set lower (& therefore interfere less), they would not provide as much protection.
The fixings to the chassis seemed a bit odd when I first looked at it. Instead of entering the chassis vertically, it was angled towards the rear of the car. During fitting I discovered why: You need to insert your arm through a hole in the bottom/rear of the chassis in order to attach the nuts to the bolts. If the fixing was any further to the front of the car you would never reach it.

I have seen SPK's prototype. There are a lot more bars which are thinner tubing. Getting to the battery was an awkward affair but I'm told it can be done.

Having read Marie's description of them being 'intrusive & invasive', I agree that you cannot get around this & there are many compromises with any solution.
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