Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group buy?

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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby HJ2 » Thu 11.07.2013, 09:45

Uhmmmm.
2 things that matter: Production numbers and safety IMHO.

The S2000 has been produced in larger numbers, so the aftermarket-market is bigger than the Elan. When you can produce in larger numbers, the cost goes down. Easy.

The fact that ours is more complex does not mean it is over-engineered. It is designed as a structural part.
The S2000 Ebay parts look more of a cosmetic thingey than a sound structural rolling protection. I know these from my BMW Z3. They look good, but do absolutely nothing when you roll over but adding to the troubles you put yourself allready in!

All in all not a fair price discussion would be my opinion if anyone cares :mrgreen:
Last edited by HJ2 on Thu 11.07.2013, 10:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby Karl Martin » Thu 11.07.2013, 09:48

Those S2000 roll bars and covers are second hand....I'll wager they are a lot more expensive if purchased new.

A vast majority of roll bars are useless in a real world situation, as my paramedic friend will testify....most are too low and are nothing much more than decoration....your head hits the ground way before the bars do, and don't forget than when you go upside down, a three point standard safety belt doesn't keep you in position tightly like a full harness does and your body will slip quite a bit higher, making the problem worse.

As our cars are made from GRP, the points to which any roll over protection can be attached, which will actually work, are always going to mean a more complicated and involved design.

Most roll cages that I have seen that are properly tested and rated, are really complicated and highly engineered and are quite intrusive in the car. The people who work on my car are race car builders and they are very skilled, with decades of experience, but even they refuse to build roll cages, themselves, because they have seen so many fail. They will only fit reputable ones from proven manufacturers.
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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby Karl Martin » Thu 11.07.2013, 09:57

And sorry to hj2 if I have repeated his post....it wasn't there when I pressed send! :oops: :roll:
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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby HJ2 » Thu 11.07.2013, 10:06

No need for excuses! 8)
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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby GoM100Go » Thu 11.07.2013, 21:39

I will whole heatedly agree that "roll cages" and 3 point harnesses will provide the upmost security in a roll over accident, that said we are talking "roll hoops"... I have no interest in making my daily driver go from brilliant British artwork to a jailhouse safe. All for the sake of security, I will drive my Rover when I have the need feel that safe. Although it is stated early on that these particular group buy hoops have not been tested and are not certified as the argument is being made by Karl as to their intricate complicated design (very unlike Colin Chapmans' thinking, I don't know if he would approve). I think these might be as cosmetic as the Hondas in the end, no way to argue their effectiveness... Having not been tested or certified in fact. In the end it seems to be a very pricy cosmetic "enhancement". I am not one to put price on my Elan happiness having spent $1000 (K) on a new dash, $K on the LGM valence, another $K on seats and steering wheel and another $K (just today) on the Elise LED pods to go in the valence,- all cosmetic enhancements, not to mention maintenance (3 cats)... on a car I bought 1 year and 6 months ago. These would be the most single-item-expense that I have had aside form the car purchase. But I will if they make me happy. :mrgreen: I am just weighing my options on the hoops. In the instructions sent it shows a lot of cutting (modifying/damage) of the interior bits, -another source of concern for me. :( -I will have to decide soon I suppose. Good discussion points gentlemen. :cheers:

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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby Rusty Wishbone » Thu 11.07.2013, 22:00

I'm sure that the hoops could have been designed to be cheaper, but when they were designed, the aim was to produce something which was very strong, using Motorsport experience. They could have been designed to be made out of a cheaper, less strong, heavier steel. In any event, what is on offer here is the SPC design. I have no interest in having the hoops redesigned to make them less good just to save a few pounds. In any event, as others have said, comparing the hoops with ones from the Honda is not really fair. This group buy will increase the total number of Elan hoops ever made to about 25.
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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby HJ2 » Thu 11.07.2013, 22:10

Realy James, what are you trying to tell us?

My downpipe modifications are not certified, but they work. I trust my gutfeeling and engineering experience more than a piece of paper alone. If you want fancy cheap and simple hoops, make them from PVC pipe and spray them chrome :-)

I'll be saving a couple of pennies from now on :-)
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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby Rusty Wishbone » Thu 11.07.2013, 22:19

James, our postings crossed. I understand your view, and am unable to say how effective the hoops would be in a roll-over. I hope that there is never any need to find out.

You are right to say that a certain amount of fibreglass cutting is required because they bolt down to the chassis beneath. I think that is good, but not everyone would agree.
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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby Rusty Wishbone » Fri 12.07.2013, 00:05

I think that it is time to start a final list of people who definitely want the hoops, and whether they also want the fairings & modified deck.

1. Rusty Wishbone - hoops only
2. Cliff - hoops only
3. HJ2 - hoops, fairings & deck
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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby Jeemy » Fri 12.07.2013, 00:18

For me, I am keen on the fairings and deck. I don't want to be that guy who spoils the whole group buy and am hoping to use the deck & fairings with the LGMs. I'll kick around at the back but if you need somebody and especially if the fairings & deck won't work with LGM, I may sell LGM and have a buyer waiting, and go for the whole thing. If you're struggling I'll get involved. I'm not keen on further modifications/structural/destructive work - I want to only be working on additive work - rebuilding and improvement now. But I do think the bubble deck would be a nice addition and I have paint kept back for it.
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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby Karl Martin » Fri 12.07.2013, 11:44

James

hj2 said "If you want fancy cheap and simple hoops, make them from PVC pipe and spray them chrome" :agree: !

I have actually been to shows and seen this done, if cosmetics are all you are after, they were simply there to support the wind deflector and made to look like roll bars. Easy, cheap and effective.

You said "I have no interest in making my daily driver go from brilliant British artwork to a jailhouse safe. All for the sake of security, I will drive my Rover when I have the need feel that safe."

I agree that full cages are intrusive and ugly, but again, let me regale you with my friend's stories of squashed skulls with their eye balls hanging across their face, brain matter squeezed out of their ears like toothpaste and intestines through their mouths, skulls hanging off from broken necks and people who now need to be fed through a tube for the rest of their lives. Or maybe the guy who held his wife crying "no,no,no" as she died, courtesy of MX5 roll bars that were useless. Only people who have never seen these things are so cavalier.

"Although it is stated early on that these particular group buy hoops have not been tested and are not certified as the argument is being made by Karl as to their intricate complicated design (very unlike Colin Chapmans' thinking, I don't know if he would approve).

From what I have read about Colin Chapman it was *unnecessary* over engineering that he was opposed to, not innovative engineering of which he was a pioneer, which has always a level of complication, by its nature.

Neither did I advocate the hutching roll bars......not until anything has been tested to destruction in the real world, will you know their effectiveness.

However...."I think these might be as cosmetic as the Hondas in the end, no way to argue their effectiveness... Having not been tested or certified in fact. In the end it seems to be a very pricy cosmetic "enhancement".

I don't think so....personally, I would wager that these roll bars are effective from looking at the website of the guy who designed these things. He has spent a large part of his adult life building proved roll cages and racing space frames, does that sound like somebody who doesn't know what he is talking about and would produce a product that wasn't worthy? It would be akin to a doctor who operated on a patient and didn't care about the results. You've only got to look at all the attachment points to the chassis and the reinforcement to the hoops, to know this is a serious piece of kit....my race car mechanics were impressed, although in their opinion, nothing more than a full cage with overhead and windscreen surround protection should be considered (but then they are somewhat obsessed, once again, having seen the numerous real world result of racing incidents)

Bear in mind, also, that he built these bars after a member here almost lost his life, after a serious accident, not with profit in mind.

On a personal note, I do not like the look of any roll bars on our cars....I like the 'clean lines' of the standard car.

The hutching design is too tall and pointed for my tastes (but this gives you extra hight, which is a very good thing).

I much prefer the look of the LGM design, but my mechanics were far less impressed, sighting the lack of support and chassis attachments.

This is why I contacted a reputable roll cage manufacturer with the intent of getting my own roll bars built....as cosmetic as the LGM (but more like a 'mummy' shape over the seats) but with similar attachment points to the chassis as the hutching deign.

They also wanted to weld them into position, as this is stronger and lighter than a bolted option (but would be harder to remove if required and obviously couldn't be removed for resale in the event of the care expiring, or be transferred to a new car, depending on circumstance.)

Unfortunately the project had to be put on hold, due to unforeseen circumstances (isn't this always the way :roll: )
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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby GoM100Go » Tue 16.07.2013, 23:23

My aim is by no means cheaper, just better stronger lighter, and less damage to the cars interior. I would have kept the Miata if I wanted cheap. Here in the USA the mere mention of our brand, cheap is last in the list when it comes to parts, repair and enhancements. My writing was merely thinking out loud. We only got about 600 or so of these in the USA the though of chopping it up is hard to swallow, I really don't want to chop it up. Even the thought of a new alarm is unbearable when I think of the under dash cutting up of wires... It's in the sake of preserving the car and adding safety. That's all.

-James
Last edited by GoM100Go on Wed 17.07.2013, 00:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby Rusty Wishbone » Wed 17.07.2013, 00:01

GoM100Go wrote:We only go about 600 or so of these in the USA the though of chopping it up is hard to swallow, I really don't want to chop it up.


I understand where you are coming from. It is the battle between originality and practicality. For me practicality comes first because I want to use my Elan on a daily basis without worrying about my safety. Besides, Elans are cheap to buy, and there are plenty of good original ones left - in the UK, at least.
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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby GoM100Go » Wed 17.07.2013, 00:29

Rusty Wishbone wrote:
"I want to use my Elan on a daily basis without worrying about my safety." .


My thoughts exactly.

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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby steve matthews » Wed 17.07.2013, 01:49

My 2 cent's. I have had the LGM hoops for 5 years.
I believe they are of larger tubing and also thicker wall.
I believe them to be SCCA approved for track West coast.
They are now NASA approved on the East coast.
PCA another racing group still is trying to figure out what our cars are but also have approved them
at Sebring International Florida.
The bars have been shaken by the track Marshal's to the point where 2 wheel have come off the ground.
I am very confident in their design and their ability to handle an altercation.
They give additional rigidity to the frame and still FIT UNDER THE SOFT TOP.

Steve- Prepping car for Watkins Glen. :-D
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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby paulsmithmk » Fri 19.07.2013, 09:03

Rusty Wishbone wrote:I think that it is time to start a final list of people who definitely want the hoops, and whether they also want the fairings & modified deck.

1. Rusty Wishbone - hoops only
2. Cliff - hoops only
3. HJ2 - hoops, fairings & deck

4. paulsmithmk - hoops only
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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby rip » Fri 19.07.2013, 09:44

The SPC hoops certainly have more bracing all over the place but the tubes themselves are smaller then LGMs. None of us are likely to give up a set of hoops & pay for them to be tested to destruction so we are just putting faith in what we see...that a rigid, strong looking structure attached to our chassis is potentially giving us protection.

Karl Martin wrote:I much prefer the look of the LGM design, but my mechanics were far less impressed, sighting the lack of support and chassis attachments.

The chassis itself runs along the middle of the car only & the LGM hoops bolt or weld to this. So they are definitely attached to the chassis in the only place possible. I know mine are attached firmly because I re-fitted them 2 days ago :-D
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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby Rusty Wishbone » Mon 22.07.2013, 19:01

We are still some way from establishing sufficient numbers here. If anyone is sitting on the sidelines wondering how difficult the hoops are to fit, please send me a PM with your email address, and I shall send you the fitting instructions.
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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby epipete » Mon 22.07.2013, 21:02

What price do you put on safety? I am fence sitting I admit and cost is possibly the most pressing reason for this.

Of course, you only need to roll your car once to determine the benefit of any protection offered and it is worth noting that without any hoops you may not survive to make a judgement, nevertheless, there is value in considering the stability of the vehicle and the inherent risk of overturning the car! Does anyone know, of all the vehicles lost, how many were rolled? (Probably not, but it would help to balance the assessment of the merits of purchasing this 'protection').

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Re: Roll-over Hoops - Who would like to be part of a group b

Postby Jeemy » Mon 22.07.2013, 21:57

1. Rusty Wishbone - hoops only
2. Cliff - hoops only
3. HJ2 - hoops, fairings & deck
4. paulsmithmk - hoops only
5. Jeemy - poss hoops dependent on timeline, def fairings & deck
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