Lotus Elan Central

In about another week, the carbon steel rear hubs Group Buy will (should!) be satisfactorily completed.

They are members here but I am still awaiting the word on whether the engineers for those were the same as Bob used for the front & back wishbones. For reasons all involved will know, both them and us are waiting to see this buy go through before any other IPR is released to LEC.

As I found with the hubs buy, there was a lot of info to sift through and some of it was not correct.

So in advance of taking names and getting this sorted, here's where I am.

I have a brand new set of front wishbones, I haven't taken them out of the packaging. Due to some unforeseen disasters with my rebuild which I will detail there once I deal with my obligations currently outstanding, I've also purchased a donor car.

So I can definitely put aside a set of fronts and rears, not to mention any other parts we need to reverse engineer.

I have a firm in Edinburgh here who are definitely cool to replicate both or either sets of wishbones. I am also as stated above hoping that the existing firm who produced the hubs, already have the plans.

So to save me a bit of time, if anybody has relevant and current info on how far we got with these, could they post it here?

Things I need to know:

- do we need fronts too? or are these readily available? I have what I bought off eBay but no way of knowing how good they are just now.

- were rears ever actually made? if not, what were the concerns (if any) about the proposed design

- are any other (related) parts apart from the wishbones themselves required? I know TCA links were something Bob was supplying. I've pulled mine and put them back, they seemed fine and not subject to wear over the years….

….but I'd be glad to hear everybody's experiences and problems so I can identify all the areas we might need to cover in getting a permanent supplier together for our suspension.

As I test the different hub, brake and disc combos, and have a new set of Gaz shocks to fit, it makes sense for me to disassemble the entire rear wheel/suspension assembly and I will have the leeway to take all the parts away and to different manufacturers for quoting without disturbing my non-existent driving experiences!

So chime in with anything relevant, in the next 10 days once the hubs are all done and out, this will be the next thing I go to work on….

Jamie,

as I believe I mentioned previously, Bob had nowt to do with the Stainless rear wishbones, and the front ones were only ever going to be made in carbon steel, not stainless.

There was all sorts of discussion on whether Stainless would be too brittle for the wishbones, and the consensus was that it would be fine for the back, but the front holds the balljoints with an 'interference' fit, so may well be better in 'normal' steel....


...... by 'better', I took that to mean 'less likely to fail under stress caused by movement', as opposed to rust issues!

Personally, I would prefer carbon steel (which can be suitably maintained to reduce rusting) to a Stainless item of unknown strength.

OK. I know Bob created a thread about stainless rears and took money for it (sorry, but its true ><) haha disregard that, ISC.

So in fact if we do these in the carbon steel EN16, this makes life a lot easier.

I am sorry, I will go through all the history shortly, I don't mean to come to this half-cocked, but I am, a bit.

So we want carbon steel wishbones; do we want both front & back, or are the eBay fronts sufficient?

With the hubs experience, I need to make it clear that I am not waving a flag for differing materials for any other reason apart from what people asked for!

I am reading up as much as I can on the appropriate metals for everything, but I am not trying to re-invent the wheel - we should just use the right material for the job, there's no need too change anything, and certainly not for cosmetic reasons!

Jeemy wrote:OK. I know Bob created a thread about stainless rears and took money for it (sorry, but its true ><).

Are you certain? I am sure you are mistaken about this.
You'll have to post a link to the thread to convince me otherwise.

Gareth (Elanman) did a group buy for stainless bones... then ran into difficulty when the price of stainless shot up.

Rip, you are probably right. In fact you are probably definitely right.

I think in fact, the part Bob left a lot of people waiting for, was front lower wishbones. At present I don't have time to go into all the threads. But I do know that I would like to replace my rears, and I bought some fronts off eBay for £80-odd.

My statement "sorry, but its true" was referring to the fact he took money for them, never supplying them, and that its an uncomfortable topic, not that I was 100% on which parts.

I'm just posting this because I am going to speak with the engineers tomorrow, and am hoping to get some info on what is needed by everybody, so I can ask them the right questions on what we'd like from them next.

I'm still drowning under workload a little bit, I've been here 10 hours and just managed to clear the floor in front of my desk, let alone my desk.

I'll be on the phone to them the back of 9 tomorrow so anything further anybody can tell me about what suspension parts were left hanging, I can ask and see what the next step is and report back.

Cheers,

Jamie

Jeemy wrote:Rip, you are probably right. In fact you are probably definitely right.

I think in fact, the part Bob left a lot of people waiting for, was front lower wishbones. At present I don't have time to go into all the threads. But I do know that I would like to replace my rears, and I bought some fronts off eBay for £80-odd.

My statement "sorry, but its true" was referring to the fact he took money for them, never supplying them, and that its an uncomfortable topic, not that I was 100% on which parts.

Just to summarise and clarify:

Bob, as far as I recollect, never proposed any manufacture of rear wishbones. What he did do, though, was propose took some monies for and never ended up supplying rear top links. Thread here!

Bob also proposed, again took some monies for and never ended up supplying "front lower wishbones", probably more correctly known as "Track Control Arms". Threads here and here!

The "front wishbones" that you bought off ebay, because of the price of £80 paid, I suspect are front upper wishbones. Again there has never been a proposal to manufacture these.

There's a lot of technical information/discussion on the threads I've supplied the links for, especially the two TCA threads. I would recommend reading through them before possibly "Reinventing the wheel". It will also give you some idea of possible demand.

I have replaced new all of the rear items and also the front upper wishbones. I would definitely be interested in the TCAs but only if manufactured in steel. If you've thought that far ahead, would you be proposing to fit and include the bushes?

Thats exactly the kind of thing I was looking to find out.

I was looking at replacing rear wishbones partly because they are what I'm about to remove, and partly because I was under the impression they are traditionally very hard to get hold of. I also wanted to know what people are needing so when I speak to the hub engineering firm tomorrow I can get the list of other parts they produced in the past, and ask about anything else thats required.

I'll report back tomorrow!

dapinky wrote:Personally, I would prefer carbon steel (which can be suitably maintained to reduce rusting) to a Stainless item of unknown strength.

I agree with Dave, as IMO you would have to source the correct grade of Stainless Steel to withstand the stresses plus salt / chloride attack which could be very expensive and may still have to be coated for extra protection.

FYI, the Federal Top Front Wishbones fit UK cars and are/were available on the aftersales for a few quid. viewtopic.php?f=41&t=16745&p=222045&hilit=front+upper+wishbones#p222045

I would be interested in the rear top links which Bob started, took money and failed to deliver. I believe they are relatively straight forward to manufacture but are available from SJ's.

I would just like to say a big thank you to Jeemy, Wayne, Brit-car-nut & all others for taking projects on and securing the future of our cars and at a reasonable price

I think if you go for 'Ferritic' steel, i.e. stuff that goes rusty overnight, then you must get them Hot dip Galvanised.
S2 rears already come that way, not sure if the after market ones from the independants do?
Also there are 2 designs for the rears, early and 'late+S2'
There was some debate as to any physical differance between the two.

you will need to research the materials and provide a virgin set of originals if you are to reverse engineer these.....
you will also need to check the bushings.......carriers and expansions when HDG is applied may distort unless you have designed this 'movement' in.....

Thanks for all the info both here and via PM.

I am still committed to working towards a solution for suspension carrier parts, if I have the terminology right. There are several avenues now to look down and I am amending the title of the topic. I've been given plenty of info on the various methodologies for achieving a strong, rust-proof metal and the problems in doing this during various stages of construction. Also on the bushings and materials…its a lot to digest, but possible to solve all problems I think long termly.

I hope to not have to reverse engineer anything; and to go to somebody who has already produced these in the past and has plans. I'll report back once I've collated info and spoken to all the possible suppliers.

Thanks all as ever. Just want to point out I may not be the most qualified to do this (!) but am committed to getting it right for everyone in need, and am happy to step back or work with anybody else who feels qualified to assist or take over.

It would be very good to establish a reliable supply of some of these components. Happily, all of my wishbones are in good order because a previous owner had them replaced. I have just installed new rear top links, and these are not too expensive, so I personally wouldn't bother remanufactuing them. Also, I see that the cost of bushes has been reduced significantly. The main difficulty is getting the bushes into the top links. My Volvo main dealer pushed them in for free as part of a service on the family car.

My understanding is roughly as follows.

Front top wishbones:
Readily available from aftersales up until very recently for something like £8 a side. As they were so cheap I bought a full spare set, and I suspect many others have done the same. I think they are now sold out as someone apparently bought the remaining stock to sell for a huge mark-up on eBay, although I can't find any listing at the moment. They do rust readily when the factory coating is broken, but they're relatively protected from the weather so are easy to maintain in good order by cleaning and painting periodically. Don't know of any projects to remanufacture these, as there hasn't really been any need yet.

Front TCA (lower wisbone):
Now difficult/expensive to replace - £350ish where available (although I believe this includes the lower ball joint so perhaps not bad value). I don't reckon there are many spare sets around. These are very sturdy, but will rust badly given the chance and do need replacing. I intend to keep a close eye on mine, which seem to have only developed a little surface rust so far. There have been successful examples of repair by replacing the bottom plate, but this is not a trivial piece of fabrication. The only attempt at a remanufacturing project I know of was Bob's, which never delivered in the end. I'd expect widespread interest, but with some caution given how the last project ended.

Front triangulation link:
£215ish to replace. I believe these are still available from SJ and elsewhere. Seems pricy for what it is, but then volumes are low. Theoretically should suffer similarly to the TCA, but mine seem absolutely fine, perhaps since they appear to benefit from some sort of electroplating or galvanising process. Perhaps included in Bob's TCA project, but I don't know of any successful attempts to remanufacture. I wouldn't expect this part to be a high priority for many people.

Rear lower wishbone:
£470+ where available, although these are galvanised now so most cars will only need one replacement set. Non-galvanised originals rot something terrible, but S2 and later replacements are very resilient. Mine seem to have been replaced with galvanised versions, so I don't expect to need more. There was a successful but limited run of stainless versions, otherwise I don't know of another remanufacture project. A potential new source at lower cost always attracts some interest.

Rear upper link:
£86 from SJ - quite reasonable, really. Have been known to rot, particularly the original, square section version. The new tubular ones seem to last better. Mine seem fine. I believe Bob also had a project to make these, but I was never really sure why since the price doesn't seem too bad anyway. Might be some interest.

Bushes:
Most bushes seem available, but very expensive. In addition, whilst regular maintenance can ensure that the metalwork stays serviceable, the bushes will inevitably perish over time. I believe that replacing the wishbone, link, ARB and raft bushes would run to something like £325+ given current sources. I'd definitely be interested in other options.

Mystery bonus item! Prongeron:
This is quite a complicated member, and seems to be increasingly sought after as they do get damaged by speed bumps and careless mechanics. Mine is quite bent and dented, like many others I've seen. I don't seem to be able to find available replacements, and decent ones appearing on the forum are usually snapped up quickly. I suspect there'd be some interest if you could remanufacture these at a good price.

One other comment on materials - whilst stainless obviously has its benefits, I'm a big fan of galvanised steel. I've been very impressed by the ability of galvanised items to resist corrosion despite being subjected to very harsh conditions for many years. For the ability to retain the material properties of the most appropriate alloy, I'd almost always prefer hot-dip galvanised to a stainless alternative.

Adam

Brilliant info from all. Once the hubs buy is completed, I'll start to collate this and see what I can do. Thanks in the interim, J.

Jeemy,
Track control arms are hard to get and expensive, so it is good to hear you are trying to solve the problem. I for one will certainly want a pair. I worry every time it goes in for an MOT that they will say the TCAs are shot.

Ade

OK first part I will be trying to gather info for are rear lower wishbones.

Mine will be off the car in the next 48 hours, then I am to send a photo to several companies to see if these can be replicated, and I will take them to Geo Brown and Son in Edinburgh personally to get some advice. Following this they will be posted down south to be shot blasted and then hot zinc dipped, and then go to the selected manufacturer to evaluate.

I could ask them to record for me the size decrease in the bushing chambers following plating/dipping, if thats the right term. The bushings are readily available and really I think the difference between me trying to insert them to an old wishbone with the surface thickness increased by rust, compared to a blasted and plated bone, will be a net credit in terms of fitment space - I understand that the thickness added by hot zinc galvanising is as low as 43 um or 0.0001" so I am not sure how this would be a measurable problem, if a problem at all.

Once thats done, I'll know where I am and can report back.

I'll then be undergoing the same process on a front wheel arch, completely stripping out every visible part, and will do the same with the front TCAs, and triangulation link. I'll know a lot more once I have the parts out of the car and in front of me.

On a side note I bought a pair of front top wishbones off eBay a while back and it was £70. Just cause I saw them and figured I should have them. At least I think thats what they were, they are in a box somewhere.

Quite often the bores, or any accuratly machined parts, are either masked off for the galvanising process or re machined afterwards.
I need to check but think the bushes are metal sleeved? If so press fit to the wishbone would not be good if the bones have galvanising on the bores.
Probaly stating the obvious but any box / closed section will need vent holes to prevent distortion if you do decide on HDG.
Then you need to make sure the inside gets fully coated.

Me?, I'd go stainless to save all the agro, doubt price would be a barrier for any GB?

The bushes are rubber sleeved that I've got, if I understand correctly. I think there are already holes in these for venting and inserting Dinitrol. I'll know a bit more once they are off the car and I give them a good poke and wave them at a few people.

Jamie: The only "holes" in the rear wishbones is the one for the plastic brake line clip. There are basically 3 boxes: the two sides and the rectangle at the outer end. The hole for the brake line clip is in the rear "side" structure. Since it is OK to have that hole, adding one to the front structure is probably OK but it will need to be plugged with something that will stay secure over time. The front rectangle will also need to be pierced. Several people I spoke with added holes to input and slosh thinned Waxoil, Dinitrol is not as popular an item as back in the day, Waxoil got a lot of promotion by the MG/TR/Jag crowd. For US supplies, you can try here: http://www.mil-specproducts.com/brands/Dinitrol.

FYI

poly bushes are available

you will need 2 inner an 2 outer per bone......
these were priced at £38.31 an £12.52 each + vat.....

that stands at £243.98 for a complete set......

I believe there may be some discount on these at the moment to £117.60 for a complete set (yes for both bones)

there maybe a further discount as I have an account with the manufacturer....(or I did have)