New sets of brake pipe copper or copper nickel

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New sets of brake pipe copper or copper nickel

Postby alan e » Wed 24.04.2019, 19:51

I have been Emailing and phoning Automec about a set of new brake pipes it turns out that unfortunately they do not have the specifications for the pipes and the thread of the fitting on the M100 but are happy to make a set them if I supply them with the each length of pipe and the fitting type at each end of the pipe to make a set but they do not supply the pipes bent to shape and then add the m100 to there list of cars that they make pipes for, when I said that I will see if I can start a group buy they said that If I supply the specifications and buy more then one set they will give a 45% discount and that the average price for the average car (the M100 maybe more or less) is £120 + vat and 50% if I order over 25 sets that's a big discount. so is there any interest seeing that our cars are now over 25 years old if there is in the LEC way I will start a group buy list and if anyone can help with the info they require that will be helpful.
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Re: New sets of brake pipe copper or copper nickel

Postby Tuga2112 » Wed 24.04.2019, 20:31

Alan.

have you considered buying kunifer pipes and bend them to shape, double flaring the ends ?

i reckon for 120 + VAT you can buy enough kunifer + couplings and all the tools to do the job yourself for the whole car.
bending copper/kunifer pipes is pretty easy and double flaring is also a doodle.
i think the elan piping is 3/16 with a few joints that are braided from the factory (im sure theres braided joints near the rear suspension wishbones)

something like this https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Land-Rover-D ... SwCJxaHr7m

I would suggest buying the tools, pipe and couplings separate. im pretty sure that specific set i linked would be cheaper if bought that way.

I have bent and flared copper pipes in the past for 3 different reasons, it is an easy job
after removing the existing pipes, you will have a perfect example of the shapes. with a handfull of cable ties you can easily make all the correct bends side by side by hand.
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Re: New sets of brake pipe copper or copper nickel

Postby dapinky » Wed 24.04.2019, 20:35

Whilst I'm not in need of any brake pipes for my car, and I don't know the lengths and fittings without taking the current ones off my car, the only useful thing I can add is that the male and female ends are all standard M10 thread - except the ones into the master cylinder on some cars are M12 (and I don't know if ther ends are short or long threaded ones).

So I'm not much help at all - and I make my own pipes so just got under the car and did the lot when I was rebuilding it.....


..... however.....

What I can say, is that the cars are all now 25 - 30 years old, and whilst many (most?) have had brake work done with various upgrades and/or restoration to the callipers, master cylincer, flexible pipes, prop valves etc, I wonder how many have had the solid pipes replaced?

It is one of those things which (as long as they don't leak) get ignored until the point of failure - or, (hopefully!) the MOT man picks up a problem at the annual check.

The OE brake pipes are made from a coated steel material with zinc plated fittings, and many are now getting towards their natural 'end of life' - they are cheap to mass produce, and last quite well, but are not easy to make at home as the pipe needs specialist bending tools - hence tend to be replaced with copper or cunifer (or cupro nickel if there is no Iron in the alloy).

I personally find copper to be the easiest to work with, but dislike the mechanical properties of the material (case hardening) for long-term use, so use a cunifer alloy on my own cars - with stainless steel fittings.

I would suggest that if you are getting a set made, you specify that this material is used (many home mechanics don't have the time/tools to accurately/frequently create great flairs with the harder materials, so many use copper or get them made up by someone else to ensure that the joints hold pressure).

Anyway, my point is that it is probably a good idea to change yours if they still have the original ones, especially as it is not a great idea to replace a single pipe with a different material once it is identified as being 'suspect' as the rest of the system won't be far behind in terms of wear and tear - do it once, do it right is the motto here.

The price quoted by Alan seems more than fair, and there is nowt complicated on the Elan system which should make it significantly more expensive than any other vehicle to make. Fitting is easily possible by a competent DIYer with a few tools and an eye to being clean/tidy.

Worst case scenario is that in 10 years time when our cars no longer require an annual MOT, how many will still be using rusty steel brake pipes, blissfully unaware of the impending failure???
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Re: New sets of brake pipe copper or copper nickel

Postby nicowalker1 » Wed 24.04.2019, 20:44

I’m certainly interested, it has been on my to do list for a while.
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Re: New sets of brake pipe copper or copper nickel

Postby alan e » Wed 24.04.2019, 20:50

Tuga2112 wrote:Alan.

have you considered buying kunifer pipes and bend them to shape, double flaring the ends ?

i reckon for 120 + VAT you can buy enough kunifer + couplings and all the tools to do the job yourself for the whole car.
bending copper/kunifer pipes is pretty easy and double flaring is also a doodle.
i think the elan piping is 3/16 with a few joints that are braided from the factory (im sure theres braided joints near the rear suspension wishbones)

something like this https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Land-Rover-D ... SwCJxaHr7m

I would suggest buying the tools, pipe and couplings separate. im pretty sure that specific set i linked would be cheaper if bought that way.

I have bent and flared copper pipes in the past for 3 different reasons, it is an easy job
after removing the existing pipes, you will have a perfect example of the shapes. with a handfull of cable ties you can easily make all the correct bends side by side by hand.


£120 less 45% possible 50% if 25 are ordered.
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Re: New sets of brake pipe copper or copper nickel

Postby Tuga2112 » Wed 24.04.2019, 22:04

i have a suspicion that a pre-bent set made based on measurements without being field tested is likely to require a lot of faffing about when you get to install it.
And because you will remove the old pipes, that means you will have the perfect template for your car in order to shape the kunifer to. (in "theory all elans are equal"... but they were also all handmade to a certain extent),

my rought estimate is that the DIY approach will be close to the 60 quid mark, and you get a "free" good grade flaring tool kit in the process.

if i was taking this task (which i will whenever i get a garage....)
id be going to my local parts store. and buy 2 of these.
https://store.fastcardirect.co.uk/316-x ... 1011-p.asp

I completely understand some people may not feel confortable with the idea of making their own brake pipes, if this is out of someone's comfort zone, then by all means, the extra cost is worth the peace of mind. but if your already familiar with a certain degree of DIY, this is one of those jobs that sounds a lot harder than it really is.

PS.
id suggest getting a "steel pipe grade" flaring tool, those will work fine with kunifer for brake lines, but more importantly, they will work with the harder material used in other pipes (like the clutch hidraulics in the Alfa spider and Toyota Celica)
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Re: New sets of brake pipe copper or copper nickel

Postby dapinky » Wed 24.04.2019, 23:09

Joao,

Can I respectfully suggest that you spend a few quid more and get better pipe and fittings?

Not that there is anything inherrently wrong with the item, and it is going to be easy to work with, but cunifer is a superior material to copper for 'everyday' use. Any good motor factors will sell you a roll of pipe and it isn't that much dearer than copper stuff. Buying the fittings in bulk (bags of 25) is the best way to do it for cost.

I have a couple of pipe flaring tools, one cheapo one and one dear one - both work very well, so there is no need to spend a fortune - but use one which clamps onto the pipe and then screws down to form the flair - the 'lever action' ones are okay for a quick single fitting to a pipe on a car, but not ideal for a longer run of use like making a complete set..... and ain't really great for anything except 5mm copper.

Oh, and as the Elan pipes are steel, I think it's fair to assume that (as they can't really be easily bent for a bespoke fitting) they are one of the few things which will be identical on each car to leave the factory.
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Re: New sets of brake pipe copper or copper nickel

Postby Tuga2112 » Wed 24.04.2019, 23:38

i just realised the description in the website says copper, i was told at the counter these are kunifer when i purchased a roll.
i was told in the shop that no one sells copper pipes in auto parts stores these days because kunifer is both cheaper and better than pure copper.

it is possible i been lied to, and honestly i have no idea how to test if my current pipes are one or the other, they surely look like copper visually. but as far as im aware kunifer looks like copper too.
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Re: New sets of brake pipe copper or copper nickel

Postby dapinky » Wed 24.04.2019, 23:55

The issue with kunifer is that it is (by definition) an alloy containing copper, nickel and iron.... except it doesn't always...... but it should.

Is that confusing enough?

'Kunifer' is a brand in the same way that most 'Hoovers' are actually 'Dysons' these days.

Cunifer is an amalgamation of the 3 periodic elements for the metals.... Cu (copper) Ni (nickel) Fe (iron) with an 'r' on the end to suggest that it is a ferrous compound of iron.

There is no 'industry standard' for the quantities of each metal in any alloy, but clearly some are better suited to some tasks than others.

Pure copper is very soft and maleable, whereas cunifer is harder to work with, stiffer, more robust and (usually) a 'greyer' colour than copper.

.... anyway, that's enough of this thread hijack - sorry Alan :oops:
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Re: New sets of brake pipe copper or copper nickel

Postby GeoffSmith » Thu 25.04.2019, 00:01

Copper work hardens and becomes brittle so I would try and get the flare right first time every time.
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