stainless steel rear wishbones

[theelanman]

Is it me or is this just been a F**cking waste of time

that'll be my time and effort then

[theelanman]

Any possibility of your man manufacturing the fronts?

yes he could......but hed need a set to use as a template
cheers
g

[Enright]

also guys........have spoken to my mate and lotus have been intouch with him.....by the sounds of it he may well be the next supplier to lotus for these bits and as such these will not be available direct from him but will have to be bought through lotus (back at the factory) at their price of £365 + vat (approx £430 each).......I suggest that it may be an idea to get the 'not just yet' list moving sooner rather than later...just a heads up
cheers
g

Can't believe that Lotus have got involved what a waste off finding a different supplier

Is it me or is this just been a F**cking waste of time This should of been kept to the LEC community and not for putting money in to the Lotus parts departments for doing absolutley nothing to help the future of the M100.

Why can't the supplier at least let LEC deal direct?

Monty, despite everyone's good intentions here ultimately the design is still Lotus's. And if they decide they're going to bring it back in house, there's very little anyone here can do about it. Would you want to take on a car company and their solicitors to discuss copyright and intellectual property?

I'm not sure how to read your post - who are you being angry at? If I was Gareth it would have made me very defensive after having gone to such effort.

To me it sounds like a shot across the bows, and as such it may be a very good idea for a few people to get themselves under their cars with a screwdriver to see how long theirs are going to last. And if the answer is less time than they intend to keep their Elans, to get themselves added to the list before the list gets removed!

[Monty]

The whole point was to get a cheaper supplier than Lotus as they make a ridiculous amount of mark up on parts.

SW Lotus were doing copies of the wishbones at £225 so i assume there will be no copy infringement.

All i`m saying is that in a few years time we`ll be in the same boat and some one will go through the whole proccess of finding another supplier to get them cheaper.

If i was the engineer making these wishbones and lotus were going to make a near 100% mark up i wouldn`t be happy and infact i would seize to make them and let them find another supplier to rob from

Why can`t Lotus charge something like £300

IMHO i just hope SW Lotus can get another supplier for the Galvanized version which will give more M100 another choice.

I take it that the exact same thing will happen to the fronts then

[Dico]

Any possibility of your man manufacturing the fronts?

yes he could......but hed need a set to use as a template
cheers
g

Might be able to help out there then

Speak to you at Donny, if not before

[theelanman]

The whole point was to get a cheaper supplier than Lotus as they make a ridiculous amount of mark up on parts.

SW Lotus were doing copies of the wishbones at £225 so i assume there will be no copy infringement.

All i'm saying is that in a few years time we'll be in the same boat and some one will go through the whole proccess of finding another supplier to get them cheaper.

If i was the engineer making these wishbones and lotus were going to make a near 100% mark up i wouldn't be happy and infact i would seize to make them and let them find another supplier to rob from

Why can't Lotus charge something like £300

IMHO i just hope SW Lotus can get another supplier for the Galvanized version which will give more M100 another choice.

I take it that the exact same thing will happen to the fronts then

I completely agree with what your saying but lotus will order a load in one go......
the problem with making this stuff and keeping it to a 'forum' is the support we give it........
if we wanted 20 or so then it wouldnt be a problem to cope with outlay but as the numbers are so small compared to the time and ££ invested then as otus would buy them in greater numbers then this is where the problem lies................
if you made a one off but someone was prepared or had the capital to ask you to make 100's then you would.....if you made a one off 'sigular' then youd pay one hell of a lot more........
its all about numbers and ££££ (or $$$$) no body in the wolrd make anything for free.......
what Id like to happen is that we say get loads of these ordered to cover the guys outlay and then he can refuse to make them for lotus and we can keep it here but until that happens it may go the other way....
I'll try to find out how long the deferal period is..........
does any of this make sense??????
cheers
g

[GeoffSmith]

does any of this make sense??????

Perfect sense! It's all down to scale.

Don't forget that Lotus are a very low volume producer and their development costs have to be clawed back through sales and aftersales margins - if you want cheap, buy an MX5 (and you get the added bonus of being "spotted" a hell of a lot more!) where the mark up on spares is peanuts (by comparison).

[Monty]

Yep that does make sense

But what would your engineer do if Lotus didn`t take them of his hands?

If you don`t mind me asking what did he spend 5/6k on

But again it comes down why lotus have to make so much money on something that You Gareth, DaPinky, your engineer and maybe others have given your time and effort to get this of the ground only for Lotus to make the biggest profit

What about having a word with your engineer and at least allow LEC to buy direct with a discounted price

[theelanman]

But what would your engineer do if Lotus didn't take them of his hands?

If you don't mind me asking what did he spend 5/6k on

if lotus didnt take em then he'd have made a loss.....
which to all intents and puposes is what has happened here the only thing is that in this instance there is a way out and a way to get back you investment and it lies with selling to lotus......

as for the $5k~£6k Ive guessed that as he's had a guy on it for at least a month making jigs etc, laser cutting bits and having the bush carriers made at least 3 times.......and dont forget this was for making a pair in symetry......it was probably less than this but I would estimate at least £3000 just in time and materials in,aking the jig, having bits laser cut and having the bush carriers made

[rip]

if lotus didnt take em then he'd have made a loss.....

And slow orders are not much good. More of a commitment now would be much better.

As I have already indicated, I do not really haev the cash for these now, especially as I have an imminent bill for my cylinder head work but I will borrow some cash to buy my pair if it helps.
We cannot all expect everyone else to make this priject a go-er, then benefit from it later. More of us have to show support ASAP.

[Andy_J]

I am only on the not now list as I have had to get the front end of my elan resprayed following a hit and run. If it helps keep the project on track I will find the cash to put a firm order in now.

Andy

[DeeAitch]

what was originally said was that depending on numbers he was prepared to do them in batches of 5....

This was still the situation early in Jan. What changed? Is a bigger batch than 5 now made? If so I'll honour my original commitment!

Personally speaking it all came at a bad time, just after Xmas, but I've always said I'm in regardless - that's still true.
I admit I got cold feet with all the talk of non std bushes etc. I'll also say now that I'm concerned with the fit, seeing that they are based on a copy rather than OE CAD data. I already have an OE on the limit of the adjuster and the toe is a little out.
This is no reflection on the fabricator - he is working with what he has, but who knows which end of the tolerance band the masters were at?

Some observations:
1. How come Lotus are suddenly involved?
2. If they take over this project I assume they will cough up for all the excellent consultancy work done by Elanman, Gareth, DaPinky the fabricator et al? £100 per hour sounds resonable Hats off to you all for getting it this far!
3. Will Lotus really offer stainless suspension parts without serious testing? Somehow I doubt it.
4. Why go down the same route with the fronts? If Lotus want to go with this supplier why not supply them with CAD data?

Monty - it is not hard to spend 5/6 k when you are dealing with a proffesional outfit. Time is money.
For example I paid £100 just for Cad work to get the laser cut blanks for my shortshift - and that was from 2D drawings I did myself.
I imagine there are around 10 - 12 blanks required for this project. Then there are weld jigs etc.
It is normal practice to amortise these costs across the projected volumes. All OEM's I know are happy to spend 100k on new tooling if the resulting saving - sometimes quite small - claws this back in 2 years. The 3rd year is then all clear profit! Economies of scale etc.

[Specky]

FWIW Mr Kimbers may have decided to support the M100 and knock them out for a two hundred quid a pair...

But If they turn out to be expensive... let your feet do the talking and go else where....( The power of the LEC group buy)

Good skills Gareth keep up the good work... does this mean you work indirectly for lotus now...

TTFN

[theelanman]

kimbers, matty and south west saw them at the parts fair in nov....
much interest shown and I understand that this filtered down to gerald at the factory....
as far as I know nowt is set in stone (just phone calls at the moment) but as I see it if you get a garantee of getting your money back invested into something then you take it rather than 'sort of's' and 'possibilities'.....
oh and me n pinks get nowt out of it......
I'll try to get anything defered for as long as poss.....
I'll be bringing 4 set to donny and should have my set fitted to the car by then...I'll then leave it to the masses to see where we're at

[paulwatkins]

Gareth,
If you're keeping the list going, I'd be prepared to put my name on the 'now' list to increase the order.

Complete with bushes please!

Where/How do you want me to send the money?

The "as soon as possible please and where do I send my money" list

1. theelanman ....pd
2. dapinky ......pd
3. esp88 ......Donington
4. rodman ......pd
5. davidjt ......pd
6. paulwatkins


The "not now" list:

1. Rip
2. Geoff
3. DeeAitch
4. Se
5. Andy_J
6. Stef
7. A B Munro
8. Dermot Bell
9. Woody
10. drasicjazz

*substituted Se for my place in the not now queue.

Cheers, Paul

[ailwyn]

I'm rather sceptical about lotus getting involved unless they are willing to plough in a bucket load of cash.

When we buy these from your fabricator, we take them with no warranty, when lotus sell them, they have to guarantee the parts are roadworthy.

To sell them lotus badged without going through proper testing would be reckless and irresponsible and could well find Mr K on the dole queue rather quickly, if not on a corporate manslaughter charge.

The marked up price will cover the additional testing and whacking on Lotus' healthy profit too.

However, if there is a chance that this will go to Lotus, and consequently doubles the price, I'll grab 2 sets now rather than be left with a bigger bill later.

Do we know how long these wishbones would be expected to last?

[woody]

Gareth,
If you're keeping the list going, I'd be prepared to put my name on the 'now' list to increase the order.

Complete with bushes please!

Where/How do you want me to send the money?

The "as soon as possible please and where do I send my money" list

1. theelanman ....pd
2. dapinky ......pd
3. esp88 ......Donington
4. rodman ......pd
5. davidjt ......pd
6. paulwatkins
7. Woody


The "not now" list:

1. Rip
2. Geoff
3. DeeAitch
4. Se
5. Andy_J
6. Stef
7. A B Munro
8. Dermot Bell
9.S2
10. drasicjazz

*substituted S2 for my place in the not now queue.

Cheers,
Woody

[RayD]

A few thoughts…

Apart from those people with more than one Élan, I’ve as much interest as anybody in new wishbones being available…

With Gareth being the most generous and helpful of people I think a number of things have been skirted round.

Spending £6000 up to this point means the first 30 will need to be sold before they’re into profit.

When people say they’re reasonably priced - each one is the same price as a complete washing machine. Being reasonably priced and unaffordable at the same time is beyond me.

Lotus would have over £100 worth of bushes in the ones they supply.

I don’t think Lotus would ever sell SS wishbones for an M100.

I can’t see the attraction of stainless steel. But then I can’t see it being too much trouble to make mild steel ones as well.

Because it’s not been explained I can’t see how a tube that would be perfect for an original bush would be suitable for any off the shelf plastic bushes. If the pictures are anything to go by, the plastic bushes have more of a shoulder and would normally have a shorter tube.

Had they been to the original spec with original bushes they would have sold more easily – I think – I’m not sure because from the start the interest seems to revolve round the stainless steel rather than them being brand new wishbones.

Ray

[theelanman]

the bushes are poly bushes which match the original lotus bushes...
this was one of the provisos that occured half way through this project
people had concerns that theyd always need odd sized bushes...so hence the design was changed to suit the lotus bush....I have had the bushes made to match the lotus ones but in polywotsit...this means that these are available with or without bushes meaning you can use the std lotus bush if you so wish....the other reason for using the poly bush was the fact that I managed to get it down to £50 for a set for each wishbone...which again is half the price or the OEM ones

currently to date to keep this going Ive ordered and paid for 100 of each bush (enough for 50 bones or 25 pairs...I have a separate list of people wanting just the bushes so over half of these have gone already!!) I have enough left to do 5 further sets...however additional orders will not be a problem as quantity is not a problem now that I have done the initial first batch with tooling etc......

[dapinky]

Time to stick my oar in again

Firstly, I want to offer thanks to Gareth for getting off his ar$e for the good of EVERY elan owner (if you don't need 'em now, the car will need them eventually!).

I seem to have been thrown into the same league as G, when all I have done is try and help sort out a few bushes - I don't really feel as though my contribution should be seen in the same way as Gareth who has gone 'above & beyond'.

To try and address a few of the observations - thought by many, but voiced by Ray:-

The 'bones are made from SS because that was what Gareth wanted, I liked, and others also seemed to want!
At the end of the day, the same jig could be used to make them in mild steel, alluminium, titanium or whatever - it is all down to the skill/abillity/coding of the welder (No offence to the fabricator involved - just that some only work in certain materials).

As such, Lotus may be planning on having them made in Mild steel, and maybe then galvanising them - who knows? - at the moment, I'm torn between their intentions - are they trying to secure parts for the future of the cars, or are they trying to kill off any opposition????
Maybe a bit of both, maybe they would commission the same fabricator to make all sorts of stuff in the future, once they like the workmanship/quality/pricing.

The SS option appeals to me for a number of reasons - mainly because it ain't gonna rust!
It looks great.
It don't need painting/waxoyling.

It has certain drawbacks, for sure. People have made a big deal out of it 'brittleness' - now I'm NOT an expert, and my 'Metallurgy & Material Science' study was a long time ago, but others are, and i will bow to their knowledge.
However, i have looked at the stresses involved, and don't feel that it is any sort of problem.
I'm sure the part was never designed to be 'on the edge' anyway - it is a road car, not a 'one off' racer - and for road use, the SS is quite good enough! (actually a hell of a lot stronger than a rusty mild steel one!!!!!).

The point about fitting tollerances is a valid one which i had not considered - but now have .

I see no great problem - if you fit them youself, you're probably practical enough to get round any slight issues - if you go to a garage, then they definately will be!!!

Very over-simplified, but so what!

Second to that - how many of us still keep to the 'cock-on' original settings???

Great in theory, but every time a wheel, bearing, shock, spring, bush, tyre etc is changed do you have a 4-wheel allignment done? No, I didn't think so

If anyone is that anal (should that be 'particular' or other such PC phrase!) then they ain't gonna be buying these anyway.

On to the bushes

Again, I am no expert (unlike the Lotus engineers) so i will make the usual disclaimer "I DO NOT THINK I AM BETTER THAN THEM, OR KNOW MORE ABOUT ANYTHING".

I have put in a fair bit of track testing time in my Triumph suspension/bushing selection over the years, and have drawn on that experience for this project. (I know that FWD works different than RWD - but Newtons Laws don't change!).

People seem to think that the Lotus bushes must be best because that is what was used originally. Nice theory, but technollogy has moved on. Back in the old days, Metallastic rubber was used for bushes because that is what was availlable. Shore ratings were altered by making air spaces in the bush (like an aero choccy bar) or with bigger holes.

With the knowlegde of Polyurothane and the various chemical compositions to affect shore rating, came a bit of a revolution. You wont see rubber bushes on any modern competion cars. I'm sure that if poly bushes were about 20 years ago, we would have them as standard.

Bear in mind, also, that any rubber bushes you now buy from Lotus have probably been on the shelf for 20 years - how have they degraded?

Do you really think that the galvanised wishbones supplied by SWL for £180 each actually had original Lotus bushes, (which would have cost them £130 per 'bone), fitted??????

No, nor me (and I know the story, because Gareth has put a lot of effort into finding out!) and enough of you out there seem to have used them without any issues/problems.

Anyway, enough of my ramblings, over to you lot - put up, or shut up!

I'm in for a pair, it's your choice whether you want to be part of the experiment - which I accept, this is - or not.

If not, then you may be left with little choice in the future

Finally, thanks again to Gareth - long may such people give their time and efforts for LEC . (it makes life easier for the rest of us ).hh