feeler : custom KW Suspension for our Lotus Elan << re

[XiPHiAS]

Hello all,

Because I miss the good handling trough the KW suspension of my BMW E46 Coupe I am talking with "KW Suspensions" to build a good suspension for my Lotus Elan. On my BMW I had the "KW variante III" and the handling was extremely better than original. Sporty AND comfy!

So...
KW can build me a two way adjustable (race) suspension if I provide an original suspension. Don't be fixed on the word "race", the "variante III" is also very close to that but have a very good road-comfort. My BMW was low AND had the best handling and was not bumpy at all.

So my question is ...
Would other people intrested in a KW Suspension kit for their Lotus Elan?
It would be very interesting if KW can do a small run of some of their excellent custom build sets for the Elan. Not only for me, but also for everyone that is looking for a good, riable and extremely good suspension.

At this moment they are looking for more information to build and calculating a price. Notice the variante III of KW costs : ~€1.500 (~£1.200) so it can be a little bit more...

More info about KW : http://www.kw-suspension.com - http://www.kw-gmbh.de

To get an idea how many people are intrested in a set, I put this feeler online.
Just put your name and the % of your intrest.
(this feeler is not fixed and/or binding at this moment!!)

1. XiPHiAS (99%) - depends on the price tag
2.

[Monty]

You can get AVO dampers for aprrox £400

There`s also protec which you can get from SJ`s.

[XiPHiAS]

KW is not just a suspension company ... they make high end suspensionkits. One of the best on the market like Koni and Bilstein.

I think much better than AVO and protec, I even don't know this brands

[dapinky]

Xiphias,

Firstly, i applaud anyone who gets up and finds something which may benefit ALL of us - either an upgrade, or just a change.

I have never heard of KW (perhaps they're just not big in the UK), but if they are on a level with Bilstein and Koni then they should be good!

However, at the price quoted, are they going to be 3 times better than AVO (which are very nearly Koni/Bilstein quality), or even Lotus quality??

For a dedicated race use, i can see the point, but i think you may be strugling to get many orders for road use.

Anyway, good luck!

(PS - Bilsteins are about that price)

[XiPHiAS]

Xiphias,

Firstly, i applaud anyone who gets up and finds something which may benefit ALL of us - either an upgrade, or just a change.

I have never heard of KW (perhaps they're just not big in the UK), but if they are on a level with Bilstein and Koni then they should be good!

However, at the price quoted, are they going to be 3 times better than AVO (which are very nearly Koni/Bilstein quality), or even Lotus quality??

For a dedicated race use, i can see the point, but i think you may be strugling to get many orders for road use.

Anyway, good luck!

(PS - Bilsteins are about that price)

KW is on the same level as Bilstein. I can guarantee that ...

KW owns several patents on different internal parts of their suspension (variante III) and some other high-end suspension company's pay KW to use their own invented high-tech into their products. I think that's says enough...

KW is a really new brand into the suspension business, but they growed within 7 years to the high-end world of suspensions. Just check the motorsport world and u will see KW is into many involved. So they support and deliver parts to several bigg international racingteams AND they are very bigg in WTCC. Just take some time and go trough their website...

KW does his own development and build the suspensions out of nothing in their building in Germany. So not just japanese of chinese parts put together to get some lowering. As u know Germans stand in front if we speak about automotive aftermarket parts.

On my BMW that I used for daily road use i've enjoyed my suspension every day. Also don't forget the suspension is one of the keys of your and the other people on the roads safety. The handling of the car is so much better.

I can garantee you the KW variante III is worth every penny.

ps. if no one is intrested, normaly I go with my plans to get my own personalised KW suspension for my Elan. If the pricetag is not TO high. But if KW made a special suspension for the Elan my idea was to make it possible so other people thats looking for a good suspension can own/buy one. I'm sure this wil one of the best (maybe the best) suspension for the Lotus Elan at this moment. For road and track use...

[Nige]

I know of KW but don't know a lot about them. It would be interesting to get a price For a different suspension set up as there has been a bit of discussion on this recently in thisthread. If KW can beat the £561 for what is available off the shelf that would be good (but unlikely). However, the off the shelf option is probably a bit of a mix and match and not optimal. Properly selected springs for all 4 corners, dampers matched to the springs with some useful range of adjustment left and new adjustable anti roll bars could be worth paying for, if the price is still reasonable.

[XiPHiAS]

As my dealer says the AVO is crap and there are not so much other to choose from for the Elan. KW is the best suspension I know; and I had cars with Koni Sport, H&R ... before.

The most people does not know (the feeling of) excellent suspensions because they never tasted it. And yes, KW can do better than Lotus.

The variante II is two way adjustable and have different special components into the damper to provide the best roadcontact u ever imagine. It is almost race stuff with comfort for the road.

[XiPHiAS]

As I can see there is not much intrest in a very good suspension...

So I will let them build me 1 set in special order

[chris.t]

but what about single way dampers? That would be alot cheaper surely

[XiPHiAS]

but what about single way dampers? That would be alot cheaper surely

To get them I need a "special-order" and then they always make the two-way configuration ...

I can ask more info, but they are 'special' build, so i think the price will be almost the same...

[thewheelrestorer]

It always amazes me how many folk will spend lot of money of items that actually have a big profit margin and unyet on some parts for cars they prefer to go cheap.

I have worked with KW approx 4 years ago when I was a Marketing Manager for Demon Tweeks and also when I was an Area manager for Koni, they do produce an exceptional suspension system which is designed specifically for a road application,

Avo were usually place alondside spax probably just in front, Bilstein and Koni also together and then KW who were fairly new to the UK in 2004 and they actually use KONI sleeves in some of their kits. Anyone with a Demon Tweeks catalogue or search Google can read up on the varient kits they produce and then they may understand more that their kits allow a really good ride comfort but also a firm bump and rebound rate, most of this is from the dual springs but also with some technical valving etc....

As XiPHias mentioned if people are seriously interested in a very good suspension system this is a very good place to start and should not be compared to a standard mono shock unit like Avo or Lotus original.

I would be interested, I'm planning on ripping all the suspension out and changing everything............so some KW replacement coil over units is a very appealing thought..

[XiPHiAS]

Thanks thewheelrestorer for clearing this up

95% of the people don't know KW and don't give the attention they need to their suspension.
You can't hear me saying AVO or OEM Lotus is bad, I'm saying... KW is a lot better.

Did U know KW don't make a replacement suspension system if they CANT make them better than the original?
(for new cars, ... If they don't have a suspension for older cars that's mostly because KW is very new on the market and they put more/faster input in new and good selling cars. what is normal, because they need to sell!)

I was at the KW factory for several times and I SAW what they do. I know they build 'everything' themself and they have a bigg and technical development team.
It is excellent, precise (and TüV tested) German development and all parts are made in their factory in Germany, no imported japanese of taiwanese parts.

I decided to go for the KW system because I know how excellent it is... I had the KW "variante III" on my BMW 325Ci and the car was low, but has a extremely good handling AND keeped the comfort! So on daily use the car was very usable with good comfort, and if I used the car on the track many other cars can't folow because my high speed turning

KW info : http://www.kwsuspensions.de/uk or http://www.kw-suspension.com/en/

At this moment I'm deciding to take the KW HLS as an option, that system (with TüV certificate!!!) make it possible to raise your car up to 45mm. As everyone know the Lotus Elan is already very low (frontbumper), but it still has serious gaps allround the wheels. With the KW HLS system you can raise the car on bumpy roads or a parkinglot... and when your speed is +80km/u the system lower the car automaticly.

HLS info : http://www.kwsuspensions.de/uk/30_Produ ... /index.php

[bobbrown]

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[thewheelrestorer]

Good old Bob and his negative responses !

Which bit do you "find quite strange when people talk about suspension for road use" ???

It's a nightmare designing a good compromise for suspension on a sports car for the road, too stiff...... nasty ride, too soft........... not enough complience and too much weight transfer, etc....

Design has come on a long way since the 80's & 90's, you can buy a new family hatch today like a basic (Focus) that handles very well as a fast road car and the ride very reasonable..........

Have you not been on a track day where you've been overtaken around the outside by a Fiat Uno Turbo ??? It's Because it has very stiff suspension, a roll cage which has stiffened the whole car probably by 50% and strut braces etc.....

Road cars compared to race cars are rubbish, you can't compare them......even you're all singing road going Lambo, konigsigg, Frarri, porker jobbies with 600+ horses etc,... would not lap as quick as a 1.0 litre petrol engined sports car round a reasonable track with corners...not straight line stuff......I could teach my dog to press a pedal in a straight line!!

Lotus would never entertain fitting an expensive dual (Bump & Rebound) adjustable shock absorber and double rate Helper & main spring assembly as an OE componnent.

The subject in question here is would anyone be interested in a very trick KW suspension package ?

If you listen to our european friends they are expressing their confidence from their experiences that such a system on a car designed 20 years ago should work well. I suggest you read up on the KW website Bob and digest how modern valving techniques and progressive wound spring technology can assist a car acheive good body control with lots of flexibility and suspension travel which is the job of the shock absorber, did you know that a spring is constantly attempting to expand to it's solid state under load and compression? and that anti-roll bar or (Sway bar) for our friends across the water if pushing the spring down on the unloaded side ....?

Once a suspension geometry set up is set in stone and blueprinted, Eg it is known how each corner will react and behave under all the loading (Road) conditions the basic fundamental shock absorber (Which stops the spring from ossciliating) and the spring itself can be replaced by other units. The mapherson strut unit (Coil over shock absorber) and / or the Elan double wishbone A frame set up shock and spring assembly can be changed without affecting the fundamental geometry principals.

The Avo valving will be different to the Lotus, and also the Protech. All manufacturers of shocks and springs have their own values and ideas how the set up should be. So KW will design a system based on the car's total weight, the weight distribution, the drive (Front) and the suspension design and travel, EG double wishbone,. Macpherson etc... bvut more importantly with a dual stage spring, a main spring but mounted on top of this, a softer rate smaller spring called a helper spring.

Lotus could of designed something like this but not for a production car that was on a budget, they are in business to make money just every other business.

Conclusion: If you guys like good handling, (and there are different versions and ideas of people's idea of what;s termed Good handling) then don't poo poo an idea where a component can be improved through modern design.

Historic Racing cars even from the 1950's are raced regular by many people, these machine are faster today driven by amateurs, than they were as driven by Stirling Moss, fangio, and such like in their day.................because they have been updated with modern components.

Why didn't Lotus fit 4 pots brakes ?? Same reason COST............

Shocks & Springs...........same thing.

These KW shocks will be expensive for sure, but if you want the best........it won't be the cheapest!
Ciao.

[RichardK]

Hi X,

How much do you think we are talking about here?

R

[GeoffSmith]

I can see that people like KW can afford to invest in something like a BMW 3 series setup: all volume manufacturers' cars are a compromise for road use (BMW sell suspension upgrades too) so there is plenty of scope for improvements to start with, anyone can get a new car and with a bit of reverse engineering & characterisation of individual parts they can come up with a reasonably accurate baseline, they're rear wheel drive and they produced millions of them. Even if only one or two in a thousand people buy their upgrade, you're talking thousands of sales.

The Elan on the other hand was designed with a greater bias towards handling, Lotus are internationally recognised for their suspension design, the front suspension/transmission has an innovative and unique design to reduce some of the problems with front wheel drive, the bushes etc. are old and worn to varying degrees (and only Lotus know their intended characteristics) so it is unlikely that anyone could successfully reverse engineer the OEM setup properly to come up with an accurate baseline and finally, there were only ever a few thousand manufactured.

I can see that KW will want to sell something close to an off-the-shelf solution, which may improve the handling of one car but not necessarily all. Now if there was sufficient interest to get Lotus involved (with KW or whoever) as they did with the Esprit, then that would be a different matter in my opinion.

[XiPHiAS]

The development of our Lotus Elan is almost 20 years old! Don't forget that ...

And when manufacturers design and develop a new model, they also deal with budgets, timings and bosses.
So they need to split up everything and do their best with the time and budget they have/get.

And don't think ... "I own a Lotus, so everything on my car is designed extremely well". Ok, it is better that a normal car, but you can make it allot better if you want.
- brakes -> are bad! (So we all upgrade to HiSpec, AP, and Willwood, Brembo or a minor upgrades like disks, pads, brake lines ...)
- gearbox -> is bad! (so we install the shortshifter from GeoffSmith)
- suspension -> is bad! (so we install other suspensions)

Why are the Brembo, AP, HiSpec brakes better than the Lotus OEM?
- Brembo, AP, HiSPec ... are braking specialists!
Why are the KW suspensions better than Lotus OEM?
- KW is a suspension specialist!

Lotus can't do everything 101% right ... and also, not everyone has the same idea about a car.
Maybe the stock braking for you is excellent, well ... for me the OEM Lotus Elan brakes are RUBBISH, just like the suspension.

If you stop very hard the Elan is diving on the front, if you do high speed turnings the Elan have to many body roll...

At modern cars you see that the manufacturer work more and more with other companies. Mercedes stopped the development of their automatic gearboxes and start work with another company. Nissan puts Brembo brakes on their sportcars ... BMW and Mercedes use Harman Kardon as partner for their speakers and amps. Because the other companies are specialists. You can't do everything

We all have other priorities and expectations on our cars.

Here in Belgium we had extremely problems to get our car checked with sport or lower suspensions, so we get new laws for that recently.
KW did a lot of work to get the right papers and invited some people from the Belgian technical checkup center.
KW bought 2 Mercedes-Benz C-classes and installed on one of the two testcars a good suspension.
So the people (what had in mind suspensions are just to lower your car for better looking) may test the two cars.
At a moment one of the top-managers made a mistake in a special turning on a unknown road (in Germany) and has almost an accident...
That person told afterwards ... I think with the original suspension we wrecked the car.

So point proven ... the KW suspensions ARE better than the OEM Mercerdes.
Does Mercedes make bad suspensions? No ... they build suspensions for overall use within their budget and timing.

And another thing I know, the most people don't know what a good "sport" suspension is.
So I want to ask to all the people that is telling the OEM Lotus suspension IS the best and the best engineered for our cars.... DID you ever drive a car with a good aftermarket sport suspension kit? I think not

We can't blame you, because you don't know what a good sport suspension does with your car.

I know so many people with just lowering springs telling "I never ever lower my car"... I can understand that because they don't know or ever felt a good sport suspension.

And ... I AM a Lotus Elan lover, don't understand me wrong!
The Lotus Elan is well engineered but the Elan has also his weak points.

[bobbrown]

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[bobbrown]

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[thewheelrestorer]

Fair do's, Bob I think you've really lost the point of this discussion.


Lets get Factual with this discussion, which is what it is, and not some slanging match!


"negative response"

Your response to the original question from xiphias, which was : "Is anyone interested in a shock absorber / spring assembly from a company called KW"
was not positive, but sceptical...........which is not a problem....it's a normal intial human reaction when sometimes we don't understand something.

The point we (xiphias & I) are expresssing is that;
1. The shock & spring assembly is no different to any other component that is discussed on the forum amongst members that feel it can be improved upon.
EG: The Brakes, The gearshift, the exhaust, etc..etc...

We are thinking forum members should be excited that another component can be improved upon?

Using the brakes again as an example, it would be like saying the AP brake kit is not superior to the Lotus calipers because they would of made sure "at the time" that it was up to the job!

Surely you can understand that if Lotus wanted to design and offer a new replacement shock & spring assembly today to replace the original design from the late 80's it would be vastly improved upon??

2. The Kw package if they made one, is vastly more expensive than a standard oe replacement because it's not a replacement system.............that's the point
it's an improved component just like a hi-spec brake kit is an improvement on the original specified equipment.

Lotus would of spent a lot of time making sure the brakes were up to the job wouldn't they?

Brakes have come on massively since the 1980's , so has everything else including suspension.

3. The shock & spring unit control the movement of the suspension arms and pivots, they control (damp) the oscillations and underlations put upon it from the different road surfaces..They do not change the geometry whatsoever........!!! The unit is firmly bolted at the top and bottom.

Lotus designed all the moving parts and their angles & positions....EG The wishbones, the king pin angle, the ackerman angle, the castor and camber etc....All these attribute to how the tyre adheres to the road, it's contact patch and the slip angle.

I could go on all day about handling & suspension it's fascinating and all related to Motorsport Racing which has been in my blood since 1970.

Koni, Bilstein, Tein, Eibach, & KW al build and produce coil over suspension which is an improvemnt over OE (original equipment) products.

They sell thousands of units for hundreds of applications with thousands of satisfied customers.

People purchase cars for thousands of pounds, and unyet improvements can be made to cars such as a Porsche 911 or BMW M3 by replacing the shock absorbers and springs from a independant company.

Porsche and BMW produce very high quality competent cars, and you know how much expertise has been spent on the suspension which is what this discussion is about.

KW which is also the subject in hand can produce units which are far superior.

I feel you're thinking when the word "Race" is mentioned it's not applicable to a "road" application, but most of the technological advances have come from experiences on the race track, and it's vital on the race circuit that the tyres stay on the tarmac! for traction......Race tracks can be quite bumpy and have lots of lumps and cambers etc... you only have to look at Monaco or any street where single seaters are raced on. The shock and spring settings are like chalk and cheese from spa in Belgium compared to Monaco!

My point is British or Belgium! roads are not as smooth as most racetracks and much more movement needs to be evident in the susension travel. Expertise gained from the racetrack where KW have a lot of experience can be used on the road.

A shock absorber and spring assembly can be designed on a computer CAD from scratch without even fitting it on a car! Many values, calculations, weights, distribution, drivetrain, track, wheelbase and other chassis charcteristics can be noted and then used to design a base line system which will probably be 50% better than an OE component on the first attempt before even fitting it on the car!

I do hope your understanding this now, it's like war and peace!!

My other point on ther fiat uno and yamaha 1.0 litre petrol sportscar is:

A road going Fiat uno set up for the track will lap and disgrace many high performance sports cars because it's fitted with a roll cage, has all the interior ripped out, and is fitted with race suspension, this combination makes it lap quicker than a car like the elan and other sports cars which seemingly shouldn't happen but it does because the road car is set up much more softer because it has to deal with many road surfaces. I've been on track days driving various cars the most powerful a 320 BHP Porsche which was very quick on the road but was overtaken down hanger straight on the silverstone GP circuit by a 1.3 Fiat Uno..........You can imagine this is pretty tough to take on board, and before you think I can't drive I've won many local and National Motorsport races so it wasn't my lack of ability but the fact that I had a road set up and not race set up.

On the Lamborghini Murciélago LP640, a Lynx Lm (http://www.lynxae.co.uk) closed 2 seater with a 1.3 Suzuki engine would produce a quicker lap time round the twisty Cadwell park, and for sure down the mulsanne straight at Le Mans I'm sure the more horses of the Lamborghini would go off in the distance...............but it's handling that we like isn't it ? not boring press the pedal in a straight line ..............


Just clarifying you're confsuion from your reply below:
I said:
"Lotus would never entertain fitting an expensive dual (Bump & Rebound) adjustable shock absorber and double rate Helper & main spring assembly as an OE componnent."

Why should they, they build cars for the road, the fact people track/race them has very little to with it.

The"dual (Bump & Rebound) adjustable shock absorber and double rate Helper & main spring assembly" is exactly and specifically for the road that's the whole point, that's why it's so good, it has a double whammy of being stiff and soft, this is the trick bit learned from the track and applied to the road with different values.


"I do understand suspension and what is required to get a good suspension setup, been there read the book seen the film, my point was that Lotus are very good at this and the Elan's suspension setup is still very good even today.

Sure,......but the shock and spring unit can be improved no question, remember it does not change the "Set Up" it a fixed compontent that moves up and down simple as that, the trickery is how and when it moves and how fast and how slow etc......

Historic Racing cars: Are faster than they were in their day because the components made today perform far better than the items available at the time. No question.


"If you think I "poo poo" the idea of improvements then you are very much mistaken, I have seen the good, the bad and the down right dangerous."

Then I do hope you're now mad for a KW suspension package ?

I've no idea what you're on about in regard to "dangerous" that's just being silly, there is no reason at all why a KW or any other shock assembly should be dangerous unless it's not fitted correctly??

Case closed.......
If you're not convinced that the OE shock/spring assembly can be improved..............I give up! ...i can't make it any clearer!

I do hope some other members can understand the basic principles here and back this point up.