Uprated suspension

[abmunro]

Ok after having my AR$E spanked at the weekend by even standard S1 Elises I have decided that I might need to improve my cars handling.

If any of you have looked at the Croft pics with my car in there seems to be quite a bit of body roll. My car has only covered 20k miles but the suspension is 17 years old.

I was pulling away on the straights but was tortured in the corners.

The brakes were fine AP Racing, did not have any brake fade at all.

I have read the posts on suspension and basically the Protech dampers seem to be the ones most people are using.

I have been on SJ Sportscars website and prices are as follows.

Front springs ( 20 % stiffer ) £66.98
Front dampers adjustable protech £190.35
Rear springs ( no mention of 20% ) £79.90
Rear dampers adjustable protech £178.85

Grand total including VAT £516.09 + delivery


Do the people that have them think they are worthwhile upgrade?

I dont want to have to move over all the time to let them Elises passed.

Or do I keep my money and save up and buy 111s Elise.....




Cheers

Tony

[Enright]

You've got something rarer, more useable (and IMHO better looking) than an Elise, so don't sell it.

But the Elise is about 1/3 lighter, a lot stiffer, mid-engined and rear-wheel drive. So you'll be lucky to get the better of them on track.

Upgrading the suspension will help you on track, but the compromise is a less forgiving ride on the road. On track in the IoM last year I found my car to be superb - more than a match for any of the other Elans there. But on the road I got joggled around and it sapped my confidence. But to be honest I'd rather it was that way than being overconfident on country roads.

[abmunro]

Don't panic Neil I mean to keep the Elan and buy myself another car..

[Enright]

Oh well in that case start saving!

[chris.t]

so how many times are you going on track per year and is it worth compromising the more than adequate road handling for the sake of a few track days? If you change your car for the track you will end up with something that you will not be happy with on a day to day basis. frankly changing your springs and dampers will not make your corners that much faster. Buy yourself an S1 elise (maybe a done up Cat C/D write off) for little money and use it solely for track and enjoy the elan on the road for the majority of the year - only my opinion.

[abmunro]

I use my M3 as daily driver when home and use Merc C class to travel to and from Aberdeen. I will use Elan only in good weather.

I really enjoyed the track day and am thinking of doing a as many as fit in with my work cycle.

[F1 LOTUS]

Maybe it would be worth developing some adjustable roll bars (aka sway bars)? Shouldn't be too expensive?

[Monty]

Tony,

If you do go down the adjustable dampers don`t bother with SJ`s stiffer front springs as i believe these are just the fedspec version and since there the same height as the stock ones you have to lower the spring seat on the dampers by along way to keep the ride height correct, which means the springs are not compressed and end up with soft front setup
The SJ`s rear springs are just standard which i have on pinky.

BTW, your not going to beat an elise in the corners, well maybe in the rain

I`m hoping to do croft in July, if your about come have a pax ride in Pinky.

[davidjt]

The bodyroll/understeer I had was due to the oe springs and/or dampers being worn out. Replacement originals would have been the sensible option.

You are left with around 3 clicks (out of ?16) to play with on the adjustable dampers, so they aren't really adjustable; go any softer and it feels like a '60s Cadillac.

Screwed right down, handling is OK, but ride comfort on the road is compromised: even Motorways are pretty grim since they cut back on maintainance.

Incidentally, have you checked your tyre pressures on track?

[Monty]

Personely i wished i`d drove Pinky on track when it was stock so i could compare to the mods i have on today, but that wasn`t possible as Pinky had the dreaded fedspec suspension and would off imagine that i would off been bouncing over the Elises At the time the SJ`s Gaz dampers were getting a bad rep so decided to go for the AVO`s which i`ve had for about 3 years and they haven`t failed yet

What we need, is having springs matched or made up ie 20% stiffer but shorter in length to compansate for being stiffer and maybe a little shorter again if you want the car lowered slightly. IIRC i`m sure there was somebody looking in to aftermarket springs

As David said, tyre pressure is very important to but getting them right isn`t easy. I aim for stock tyre pressure when tyres are hot then adjust from there.

If your mainly going to use the M100 for trackdays and don`t do to much mileage then go for proper trackday tyres they make a huge difference (just wish i had the money )

[Sy V]

Tony,

If you do go down the adjustable dampers don't bother with SJ's stiffer front springs as i believe these are just the fedspec version and since there the same height as the stock ones you have to lower the spring seat on the dampers by along way to keep the ride height correct, which means the springs are not compressed and end up with soft front setup ...

Sorry Jay, don't agree.
The SJ uprated springs are 15% stiffer because Philbo and (?-can't remember who) were involved in the development with SJs. Which is why I bought them. Their downside is that IMHO they're too stiff and bouncy (regardless of GAZ setting) for everyday driving. But I agree, they are the same height as stock but only have a slight effect on ride height - because the weight of the car compresses them less.
The Fed spec ones have a very much more noticeable effect on ride height.

[Monty]

SJ`s are 20% stiffer and would make a huge difference in ride height with stock dampers, similar to the fedspec
If SJ`s did have these made up why didn`t he have them made shorter with there experience you`d think they`d know that

Anyways, the point i was making was that there useless

[Sy V]

In essence we agree, then.
I meant to say 'IIRC 15%'. They are thicker (which enables you to tell them apart from the UK and Fed variants) and unmarked colourwise they may by shorter - I don't remember.
Useless, no. Not as good as stock, agreed.

[Nige]

This thread is inside my head as very similar thoughts have been buzzing around it ever since the drive back from Castle Combe on Saturday. For the first time on track I really noticed the body roll I had (see Sys photos of me in the chicane). The car was pretty quick and with track day tyres and my braking set up I was able to stay ahead of other Elans that started behind me and catch up with those that started in front of me, even passing when possible. However, whilst I was able to accelerate and stay ahead of a mate in a tweaked S1 Elise on the straights when ahead of him he gained on me in the braking and corners and once I let him by he progressively pulled away.

The protech dampers seem the best option of those available off the shelf but only because I imagine them to be lighter with being aluminium bodied, I would be equally content with AVOs as I know others are satisfied with them. I think custom springs are the answer but we would need to know what the standard spring rates are as a benchmark. I don't know this, does anyone else. If as is suggested by DavidJT that the dampers need to be wound up to a stiff setting just to match the stock set up, leaving little real adjustment then it seems clear that off the shelf is not a good option and a custom valved damper is needed. I also think a double rather than a single adjustable damper would be better, as far as I know these are not vaialable off the shelf although I don't doubt they could be made, for a price. I had also started thinking about the anti-roll bars (sway bars) as the first mod on any of the cars I've playd with in the past has been to fit stiffer anti-roll bars. There are no off the shelf options for the Elan but as F1 Lotus has said they should not be difficult to make, I would certainly be interested. I'm just not wholly clear on the full effect on the handling and am reading up on it to try and understand.

I agree with all of the comments about compromising on road rise comfort and if you want a dedicated track car and want to be fast an Elan is perhaps not the obvious starting point. However, I still like the idea of progressively improving (my definition and my acceptance of compromise) my Elan rather than spending money on a new toy. I cannot realistically afford or justify maintaining my Elan how I would wish and invest in a dedicated track car, it has to be either or and I have no intention of selling my Elan to fund a track car.

This discussion is taking us towards Kuching's thread of a year or so ago 'How Far Would You Go'. I'm still thinking, standard chassis and drivetrain, a bodyshelll and shape that looks standard to the non expert eye (still looks like an Elan) but maybe minor functional aero tweaks (front splitter?). I would however like to move the inherent ride/handling compromise (which Lotus do better than anyone IMHO) a liitle further towards the track biased handling end of the spectrum and live with the consequences for road use.

[F1 LOTUS]

I reckon a set of well designed adjustable roll bars with give you the best bang for your buck without compromising everyday ride quality. With the talent LEC has available it's no too difficult to imagine a really neat installation at a reasonable cost - could even entice ol'Geoffers to come up with a cockpit-adjustable stepper motor contol y-e-a-h
I see nothing but blues skies man...

[dapinky]

A while ago there was a similar thread (can't remember when or who ) - but the end result was that we can get any coil spring made, in any rate we want, at any length and diameter.

It will cost about £40 a corner (IIRC) and i can vouch fo rthe company involved as i have used them alot in the past.

The only/biggest problem is knowing what you want!

Lotus will NOT divulge the standard spring specs (they were asked the question), so the only way i can think of is to get a NEW/unused spring and have it tested to ascertain the spring rate, that will then give a starting point to work from.

The guy i have used knows his stuff and with the accurate weights of the car, can help to develop a spring which will give the ride height you want, with the rate as appropriate.

[Nige]

Well, we could ask Lotus again (got to be worth a try) or someone (who is looking for the Rolly eyes smiley) could buy a set of standard springs to define the start point.

But I'm liking the idea of stiffer anti roll bars, do we know anyone who could . I'm very willing to work with this as I have a real interest in developing the car in a way that Ithink Lotus might have done if it had stayed in production (complete hypothetical bo**ocks but you know what I mean).

[F1 LOTUS]

Well, we could ask Lotus again (got to be worth a try) or someone (who is looking for the Rolly eyes smiley) could buy a set of standard springs to define the start point.

But I'm liking the idea of stiffer anti roll bars, do we know anyone who could . I'm very willing to work with this as I have a real interest in developing the car in a way that Ithink Lotus might have done if it had stayed in production (complete hypothetical bo**ocks but you know what I mean).

I could suggest someone but I don't think Kuching would be amused, so I'll say nothing

In the meantime there are some calculators here to play with
Try the wheel frequency calculator
http://www.racingaspirations.com/index.php

[Nige]

surely not . I'm in first school with the difficult sums and stuff (can do hydraulics but out of practice) so am trying to understand what I really mren. Thanks for the link if we can get the base data it will help us move forward.

[Monty]

A while ago there was a similar thread (can't remember when or who ) - but the end result was that we can get any coil spring made, in any rate we want, at any length and diameter.

It will cost about £40 a corner (IIRC) and i can vouch fo rthe company involved as i have used them alot in the past.

The only/biggest problem is knowing what you want!

Lotus will NOT divulge the standard spring specs (they were asked the question), so the only way i can think of is to get a NEW/unused spring and have it tested to ascertain the spring rate, that will then give a starting point to work from.

The guy i have used knows his stuff and with the accurate weights of the car, can help to develop a spring which will give the ride height you want, with the rate as appropriate.

Thought it was you dave but i just couldn`t remember the thread

If there`s enough of us, we could all chip in a few quid and buy 1 front and 1 rear stock spring from SJ`s ? I`m sure someone will buy them back of us

Front suspension | Springs
FRONT ROAD SPRING SJ100C0003 EACH 28.50

Rear suspension | Springs
REAR SPRING SJ100D0005 EACH 34.00

I`ve just noticed that the above are SJ`s own part numbers for the standard springs and don`t list the Lotus ones So maybe they know the ratings.


Don`t know anything about the Anti-rollbars (but i know they do them for the elises), what part becomes adjustable? as there on ball joint