Track rod ends

[Readit]

SORRY to wreak more havoc in your BALL JOINT HEAVEN but I have more news from Planet Earth. I tend to agree with those who think that a small change in the outer pivot position would be insignificant to bump steer as the main fulcrum of the suspension and steering remain the same. My simplistic diagram shows the difference between inboard fulcrum misalignment and outboard pivot changes. But then what do I know with a GCE in Geometry.

fulcrum.jpg

My son who has a degree in AE (thats Automotive Engineering not Accident & Emergency)considered bump steer could be affected but more importantly taper differences could lead to loose couplings and wear to the steering arm. When I said the tapers were similar (or same-ilar) I meant they were identical as the word "same" in my language only applies to one original item, a second or more items can only be similar ( Weave gotta kepeup wiv Stan Dards on thease four rams) Any way I was wrong they are not identical but they do have similar pitches. The difference comes in the length and starting diameter (see diagram)

taper.jpg

My son also pointed out that a ball joint from a 2002-06 Vectra was unlikely to be sourced by Lotus in the late 1980's when the M100 was designed unless it was also used on a previous model. I have checked QH lists with Jaymar (very helpful in Broadstairs) and they showed me a 1990 Corsa ball joint, surprise, surprise the dimensions were IDENTICAL to the Lotus part unfortunately the threads were all different including a smaller diameter track rod arm. We checked the lists under Astra, Cavalier, Carlton and Calibra but all these had a Left Hand side different part number so they were unlikely to be correct (not a definitive statement) The only other double sided part was a 78-81 Cavalier which I discounted on age grounds (but I may be wrong)

My conclusion from all this is now they are fitted and tracking re-aligned (£25) I will keep them but if I did it again I would invest in Lotus parts or make further enquiries at Adwest Engineering the original rack manufacturer according the Mark Hughes. I'm off to my next PROJECT !!! Maybe changing Building Societies into Banks and wreaking Global Financial Meltdown ( or has someone beaten me to it )

[RayD]

When someone gets chance it would be a good idea to check if the angle of the taper is the same... rather than similar.

Ray

When I said the tapers were similar ... I meant they were identical as the word "same" in my language only applies to one original item, a second or more items can only be similar

Sorry about that Readit,

I wonder which banks will go in a simular direction to Bradford & Bingley.

Ray

[Readit]

No problem RayD .........just having a bit of fun You were the one who alerted us to the potential problems with the taper.

Watch out for cheap bowler hats on Fleabay ............... and a little Xtra

[GeoffSmith]

Thanks for the additional information Readit - the more, the better! Could you possibly measure from the bottom of the ball to the top of the shaft? Anyway, It backs up what I thought after looking at the two superimposed and I agree about the concern of the length of contact of the taper.

My concern about the geometry is based on my own experiences in electronics: most idiot electronic engineers can design something to meet a spec with nominal supply voltages, at room temperature, on the bench in the lab. The trouble starts when it has to operate within specification when there is a ±20% variation in the power supplies, the operating temperature is -55 to +125°C with 95% RH, it's been sat unpowered for 15 years and it's being subjected to tens of g. Lotus are experts on suspension and I would imagine their design tolerances are pretty tight and dimensions critical, otherwise every other manufacturer would produce superb handling cars.

I like trigonometry as much as the next man (favourite 'Dad can you help me with this?' question), but don't forget we're talking about 3D geometry here, which is not quite so straightforward to comprehend and calculate. My gut feeling is that a centimetre is unlikely to have a significant effect under most normal driving conditions, but there may be issues at the extremes (tight turn, large wheel deviation) that may be compounded by such things as worn bushes, shocks, dampers, aftermarket wheels with the incorrect offset etc. If Bob has a reasonable Autocad model, I would be interested to see a comparison of errors over the full range movement.

A good point raised by Readit junior - QR3167S was only used on cars after 1995. There were previous reports that Landies and Escorts could be used: I've checked the QH database and all Landrovers appear to be handed so we can ditch that one. I've come up with the following as possibles:
QR2377S Escort/Fiesta 67-96
QR1542S Cavalier/Manta 75-88
QR1841S Nova A&B 82-00
QR1072S Mini/Austin1100/Firenza/Magnum 59-90

[DeeAitch]

I've checked the QH database and all Landrovers appear to be handed so we can ditch that one.

Why ditch it - maybe they just used two of the same hand

alganningetmecoat

[Freelander]

IIRC the Land Rover track rod ends are male and handed whereas Lotus track rod ends are female and common to both sides.

[Readit]

For those of you who wish to consider this topic further here is a diagram showing the dimensional differences in the two units

taper2.jpg

Personally I think it is a dead duck and would put my money on a bored out 1990 Corsa ball joint

[bobbrown]

Does that take account of the differences in positions of the ball joint it's self? or does that add even move.
The picture of the two side by side makes one think it is already out never mind the fact it does not go as far up the hole as the lotus one

[Readit]

The shaded area is the steering arm so the diagram shows both ball joints in their working position.
Without taking them apart I can only assume the actual centre of the pivot is 6mm higher on the Lotus part

[Freelander]

Readit,
Many thanks for the detailed illustration of the differences.
When I replaced the track rod ends with the QR3167S, I did a visual comparison (not measured) but the replaced ends may not have been original (Lotus).
The replacements do not cause any appreciable bump steer and until today they were considered adequate.
Which gives rise to three questions - Are the QR3167S replacements safe? ie the reduced length of taper
What are the dimensions of the Corsa (Nova?) 1990? ie the differences again
What is meant by a 'bored out Corsa ball joint'? - is this a simple machining job
I'm sure that I am not only LECer that appreciates the effort / detail provided by yourself and others in pursuing this thread.

[Readit]

Thanks Freelander.......... I am still working on it so watch this space as I have received some more information today which I am examining and will post soon.

As far as your safety questions are concerned that is a matter for you and your driving. I do not track my car and drive very carefully on the road never exceeding 70mph (boring old fart and liar) but seriously you must make up your own mind on it.

[GeoffSmith]

The track rod ends are QR1785S.

[bobbrown]

Cheers Geoff

So thats the one for a VW Golf Mk1 1974-84, Jetta 1979-84 or Scirocco 1974-92

[GeoffSmith]

Cheers Geoff

So thats the one for a VW Golf Mk1 1974-84, Jetta 1979-84 or Scirocco 1974-92

Yep! I thought it looked similar to my MKII Scirocco! I've bought one for comparison and I can see no discernible difference.

[bobbrown]

On fleabay for £8.00 including delivery

Bob

[RayD]

Spoke to Quinton Hazel this morning - they don’t list a track rod end for the Élan.

He offered to identify the one that most resembles the original spec.

All we need to do is send an original one and they’ll do the rest.

From that point on presumably, they’ll be in the catalogue.

If anyone has an original and is willing to post it, I have the address and contact. Now sorted by Freelander.

Ray

[Freelander]

Hi Ray,
I have now located an original TRE (had to buy the complete steering rack), so I could make one available for comparison (subject to getting it back).
Please PM details and I will forward to QH.

John

[RayD]

Thanks John,

Ray

[GeoffSmith]

Nice work Ray. It would be good to get a definitive answer but I think I'm pretty close.... there was a little bit more detail to my decision making process than a 'Oh, that looks like one off a car I had three years ago' !

I found a useful French site which gives dimensions for the rotule de direction plus the steering rack thread details. I've measured my original OEM TRE as 90 x 36 x 70 with an M14x1.5 internal thread and the best match I could find was the Delphi TA770 (QH QR1785S) with 92 x 38 x 68 and M14 x 1.5 filetage intérieur - so all dimensions within 2mm and correct thread.

I also checked the previously mentioned TREs:
Vectra = QH QR3167S = Delphi TA1592 = 93 x 36 x 74.2 M14 x 1.5....... too tall but correct thread (as found) but same length (QR3167S was found to be longer )
Corsa = QH QR3240S = Delphi TA1680 = 100 x 45 x 70 M12 x 1.5........ right height but wrong thread (as found)


While you're at it Ray, could you get QH to give a cross reference to the front wheel bearings? They are marked as SKF BAHB 311396B which I cannot find on the SKF lists but there appear to be cross references to SKF numbers such as 309639, BA2B309639BA and BAH0036. The dimension are 39mm ID, 72mm OD, Inner race width 37mm, outer race width 37mm and seal type B. There is a Chinese website which says that they are "Double row angular contact ball bearings with ladder and the inner ring is locked & the outer ring have a lead ladder"!
The reason I ask is that I have been checking cross references but going up then down the tree can come back to a different SKF part number, which makes me nervous so it would be good to have a more authoritative equivalent.

Geoff

[RayD]

I’ll do that Geoff.

I expected there’d be more to it than it seemed.

What set me off was putting your part number in the search box and finding it’s never be mention before, while several others have.

Ray