feeler : custom KW Suspension for our Lotus Elan << re

[dapinky]

I refer to my first post at the top of the page.....

I'd never heard of KW, but now i have, and have read a bit about them - there are lots of good things to like!

Personally, I like the ride of the OE kit (on the blue car) but prefer the handling of the Protechs (on the red one), so if you can get something which combines the two, fair play.

I'm not saying i'll buy it, (cos it will probably be out of my price range for something i'd get little benefit from), but i'm sur ethat others who use the cars on both road and track my be interested.

If i could get Billstein units for the elan, I would ('cos i use them on other cars, and love the quality), but i can't, so go with what i can get - if there is more choice then it can only be a good thing, surely?


As a final bit (for now!), I think we all agree that the OE suspension is a great design, but it is 20 years old, and MAY be improvable using modern technology.....

.....where is the harm in finding out??

[Monty]

It will be good to have another choice off suspension set up, but it will always be a limited market as most members are quite happy with the Lotus setup.

IMHO KW will need an Elan to work and test on to get a good setup as Lotus won`t release the technical Info on there suspension set up and if KW can come up with a dampers with the springs already fitted so it was just a case off bolt in jobbie then you might get more interest. What members need to realise is that the Lotus suspension parts won`t last forever so eventually we need alternatives. At the end of the day it`s going to come down to cost

I`ve got AVO`s on at the mo, but it`s the springs that need looking at. I know a good man who`s in talks with Eibach who i believe have the stock damper & springs to work from

More choice the better.

[Don.Hasi]

as my elan has reached over 90000 km I´m interested in this topic too... KW is a well known company as already said. Some friends have a set in a vx which runs very nice. Personally I would prefer a Bilstein/Eibach more, but, why not. So go on with your investigation. I will have a look on your progress.



One hint to Lotus: No worry, Lotus is TOP in case of suspensions. But as it already said with all compromises for a greater market. If they do a job for a specialied market like motorsports they engineer something more precise for the certain kind of use. And then they use also uprated items like special Bilstein/Eibach-combinations or up the best (?) öhlins. So, there also goes something more... but it is all about the balance. Usually you gain something on the one hand and in return you loose somthing on the other. Thats why the job is so hard. And thats why they are so good. They have better balances than other. If the geo is done properly

[Paul.P]

FFS, another interesting thread totally ruined by the pathetic arguments & counter arguments of a few, at least when the EM's used to have a bit of banter it was entertaining .
I feel sorry for XiPHiAS who wants to try & do this, & was only seeing if anyone else was interested.

[XiPHiAS]

FFS, another interesting thread totally ruined by the pathetic arguments & counter arguments of a few, at least when the EM's used to have a bit of banter it was entertaining .
I feel sorry for XiPHiAS who wants to try & do this, & was only seeing if anyone else was interested.

I can live with it ...
I love discussions like this but my English is not perfect enough to defend mysef ...

I agree Lotus is an excellent suspension developer and I know they work for several other companys but besides of the dampers and springs you have alot other things on the car to make the handeling better. A suspension has several elements to be a good suspension ...
A.) parts on the car itself ... the hinges and setup
B.) the dampers and springs and his settings/caracteristiqes
C.) the camber and all other settings onto the suspension itself

The Elan has a special setup (patented) front suspension, but because my English is not excellent it is very difficult to explain that, but I mean the suspension exept of the dampers (and his settings) and the springs (and his caracteristiqes) is good, maybe very good. Lotus did a very good job if you see our car is 20 years old AND they need to find a compromise between a road and a minor circuit setup. But the springs and dampers can be a lot better, even with the newest techologies and tehniques.

U also need to understand that Lotus can't work with high end products on ALL their items. In that way the car will cost 50% or more.
I replaced my brakes to AP Racing brakes, total cost ~3000€, I replaced the exhaust to stainless steel total cost ~800€, I willing to replace the suspension total cost ~2000€ ... Le's do some counting ... What would cost the original brakes, original exhaustl-ine and the originals suspension? Maybe 2000€ ?? ... so when Lotus use high end parts on this items the car will 3.800€ more. And we just talk about 3 parts of the car ...

As we know that the Elan was very expensive when new ... maybe Lotus downtuned the car on some points to hold the "asking price" under control. Besides of the development department they also have the marketing department ... don't forget that. Maybe my example is not 100% right (prices) I'm sure Lotus can do better, but hey need to make a car that is usable by everyone and all over the whole world. Good and bad roads, good and bad fuel, ...

- I understand that people with no knowledge of auto-tuning 'says & think' aftermarket parts can't be better than original
- I understand that some people not willing to pay a high price for aftermarket parts
- I understand that people says/thinks original equipped cars are better that modified

But my point is... I'm willing to pay for the KW sport suspension setup because I know it will be X-times better than original.
I'm willing to take the "extra" costs to send them an original damper/spring set from Lotus AND a ride to Germany for final testing and development.
The suspension set will be special ordered AND build by KW Motorsport, they does development for many raceteams worldwide with the experience from road and racingcars.

My only reason to post it here is, I want to offer other Lotus Elan owners to have/buy a high end sport suspension set from a high end suspension company! If we can request more than one set, I'm sure KW can make a better price.

If no one is intrested ... I go for the suspension set, because my Lotus deserve a lot better suspension!

[thewheelrestorer]

I agree Paul, negative and / or incorrect comments are not required from an intial question asking if any members would be interested in a component.

The answer should be "yes I'm interested" or "No thanks" and not it won't work because they don't understand the principles of the item and what it actually does.

I can't emphasize enough that the coil over unit (Shock aborsber & spring assembly) only goes up and down !!

Suspension geometry is all the other pieces that move with the wheel (wishbones & Links etc........)

I appreciate the comments that some of you are worried about changing the set up, but the set up will not change at all by just replacing the coil over unit......the only bit that will change is the amount of resistance of a different coil over assembly which is in the valving of the shock absorber and the spring rate.

Any suspension manufacturer can very easily take a Ford Fiesta strut off a car, and measure the strength (Spring rate) of that Ford spring. They can measure the length uncompressed and the coil (wire) diameter and then make a new one from this baseline. The same with the shock absorber, they can measure the fully open length and the closed length and also measure the damping on a dynometer.

There are attributes and characteristics that they need to calculate but these funamental measurements will allow them to replicate the same product, or more importantly the job is to improve the product.

Your typical set of lowering springs for a Golf for example from say AVO will be a 20-25% spring rate increase and be 20-30mm shorter which is what lowers the vehicle.

I've no affliation with KW at all, and hence it could be any brand for that matter, but any major aftermarket suspension manufacturer that can produce a dual spring coil over unit would certainly be worth a look on this vehicle because the component in question is a shock absorber which is not a part that has to be produced 100% to the original part.

If it's all down to cost, then this is not for you.

If you want a superior product you will have to pay for it.

Count me in for an interest in this product

Lets start the list:

1. Xiphias
2. thewheelrestorer
3.

[Dico]

Count me in for an interest in this product

Lets start the list:

1. Xiphias
2. thewheelrestorer
3.Dico

[RichardK]

Count me in for an interest in this product

Lets start the list:

1. Xiphias
2. thewheelrestorer
3. Dico
4. Richard K

[Don.Hasi]

My only reason to post it here is, I want to offer other Lotus Elan owners to have/buy a high end sport suspension set from a high end suspension company!

I hope you don´t mean it exactly as you have written it.

Depending on my km when it is engineered, I´ m interested too. I would also start an interestpoll in our community if it would be ok?


Regards

btw: when I asked my suspension Professional (Deliverer for formular 2, slalom-champions, ...)he said: "No sorry, I dont know any suspension, that is so long, that it would fit... "

[XiPHiAS]

My only reason to post it here is, I want to offer other Lotus Elan owners to have/buy a high end sport suspension set from a high end suspension company!

I hope you don´t mean it exactly as you have written it.

Depending on my km when it is engineered, I´ m interested too. I would also start an interestpoll in our community if it would be ok?

Regards

btw: when I asked my suspension Professional (Deliverer for formular 2, slalom-champions, ...)he said: "No sorry, I dont know any suspension, that is so long, that it would fit... "

I don't understand exactly what you mean?
Are you asking if we can offer the special build KW sport suspension set to non "Lotus Elan Central" members?

[Don.Hasi]

Oups, I should notice it in my profile... I have meaned whether it would be ok for the crowd of Kia Elan drivers too

kind regards

[XiPHiAS]

Oups, I should notice it in my profile... I have meaned whether it would be ok for the crowd of Kia Elan drivers too

kind regards

Sorry... I didn't notice your Elan is an Kia or do I say "your Vigato"

If the hinges and mountingpoints onto the car are the same as a Lotus Elan,... no problem!

You as German citizen will know the high quality of KW Suspensions I think

[Don.Hasi]

Fine! so i will check the details and call back... Perhaps we could manage a meeting at KW.. I have contacts too, but more to the motorsportdivision...

With which tea,m do you have spoken so far?


As for the quality: Yes. They are spot on. Especially the motorsportdivision. I would say they are on one level also with Sachs. Only much more expensive solutions like Öhlins 3way with extra-fluidcontainers are a further step beyond, but with a double price for sure... I have contacts to the Öhlins-Division too, If I could help anyone... but I think -for me - it is too much technical investment... it fits more to the VX/Elise/Exige-Ringtools.

So, a KW-Solution would be a good and adequate thing.

Thanks in advance for your time in this!

Regards

[Elanlover]

I agree Paul, negative and / or incorrect comments are not required from an intial question asking if any members would be interested in a component.

The answer should be "yes I'm interested" or "No thanks" and not it won't work because they don't understand the principles of the item and what it actually does.

Its an interesting read so far and while I'm not sure I'm interested as yet I have to say mthat I don't agree with your statement above. I've not known this forum to be one where the owners blindly follow someone else's assertions without discussion. People are attached to their Elan's and if you're asking people to jump onboard your group buy then you better be prepared to justify why regardless of whether you think the comments are "negative" or not.

This is especially so when it comes to a Lotus suspension. If it were filters, oil, wheels or even, more recently, brakes you'd probably get less comments as they are known commodities that aren't really unique to Lotus. But suspension? Now you're treading into Lotus' speciality so you should expect more "opinions" to come forth. I agree that things have advanced in the last 20 years since the Elan was designed and improvements have been made. But, keep in mind the rest of the car that these upgraded parts get bolted to is still 20 years old.

What's missing for me is an objective report. For me to get interested I'd want to see KW look over the car, analyse the currentsuspension then provide a report that describes exactly what they'd do, what improvements it would make and at what cost. Right no you're asking us to sign up for a large investment without any description other than "it'll be better". That's not enough for me to part with thousands of dollars.

[Don.Hasi]

You are right elanlover. I thought this was just an interestpoll. The buypoll will follow I think. First it is to be searched for the crucial masses.

Sure there will be someone, who will buy it blind, others I think, should test the system first on a greater meeting. So one have to look for a usefull date for such a meeting. Also all have to keep in mind their special settings the date before testing a new system, as our beauties react very sensitive to other settings like any other Lotus.

I would determine that most effect will be caught by the right geo. 2. will be the items itsself... And yes, although the handling will raise to a even more better side, one have to look after the actual trackrodends, wishbonerubbers, ARBs, ... to get the full advantage of the new investment.

But one also have to start at one point

[thewheelrestorer]

Hi elan lover, I counter your statement that it really does need to be a "yes I'm interested or "no thanks".

It was a who's interested question? And if the attitude is only a Lotus shock absorber can should be used why have people put AVO's on their car?

Sure it's all good stuff when people want to know more information, that's perfectly natural, I just can't believe how many folk seem to think a replacement shock absorber, or shock and spring assembly may change the geometry of their car .

It will not affect the geometry, no angle of dangle can or will change. As previously mentioned the shock absorber is firmly bolted down and can not move...... Sure Lotus would of specified a bump and rebound ratio and a spring rate, but this is all very basic stuff to copy in the after market suspension world.

Surely there must be plenty of guys and girls out there who also own and have owned other vehicles, of which at some point you have changed the shock absorbers on your car, because they were worn out, or you wanted a more sporty damper. Either way there must be many mnay people that noticed an improvement.???

Your Lotus can have this too !

I've been a member of a few specific car forums, and it's obviosuly "Parr for the course" that all members think there breed of car is the most amazing thing on the planet, but please guys............. improvents can be made to Lotus Cars, the engineers have an immense reputation and are extraodinary, but as previously posted. If Lotus were to redesign the technical details of the shock and spring assembly for the Elan with most importantly a big budget then this would be the same effect as an aftermarket suspension specialist.

There are plenty of other talented designers who specilaise is certain components and I'm personally into handling more than any other thing on a car. I read up on the Elan 10 years ago or so and have always been interested in trying out the handling for myself.

The example I've purchased 2 months ago is in very good condition with full lotus + Lotus specialist service history, 1990 se and only 86,000 miles with a full history file etc..The previous owner had the car 9 years and spent £18,000 on the car.

However the handling is very disapointing so far, but it's quite clear from my automotive design and sales experience that all the suspension needs changing and the geometry checked and set etc... then I can see what's it;s doing.........I've spent literally thousands on many many cars changing suspension, bushes, anti roll bars, shox, springs, etc....and I'm also a little disapointed that there is a small range of choice.

I couldn't give a monkey's if it's KW , Koni, Eibach, Bilstein, Ohlins etc etc..the fact remains there is not a very good choice of replacement aftermarket suspension available for this car, and a suggestion for alternatives such as a dual spring variente 3 kit from KW would be well woth a look.......obviously there is not a big demand for such a vehicle and this is why there are not several manufacturer to choose from.

I'm into to Handling big time and I think a modern suspension shock / spring assembly could be quite a piece of kit...

Those of you that are interested please fill in the list, I have contacts with AVO, Koni, KW, Ohlins & Sellholm Tuning in sweden who revalve Bilsteins......I've has special springs made for vehicles before and I think I would like to assist with this, but it will have to wait a couple of months as my business is moving premise and I'm running out of time in the day to get everthing done !!

Ciao.

[Don.Hasi]

as Elanlover hasn´t mentioned everything in your post, I think some statements were directed in my direction.

I just can't believe how many folk seem to think a replacement shock absorber, or shock and spring assembly may change the geometry of their car .

hm... in my view, if you mount a shorter shock, as comparables are not awaible, you will have a different base (regardless that the steering must would have been changed to make sure, that the mechanic is on the right hight). This base would change the percentage of the tyre/roadcontact. With other words, the camber is influenced with our layout. Don´t you agree?


I would underscribe the complete list of your points. Only one point I would carry on:

The testseries Lotus have had done for the stock layout were much much more expensive than any aftermarket company will ever do… if they will testdrive the car anyway. Ok, depending on their experiences, and KW has a lot of it, they could develop from the stand today with methods, knowledge and technics of today.

But they won´t start at the same point like lotus.To be fair, if anyone actually at Lotus do know charming details of the former elanwork, would have to be answered as well. But they would have more doucmentations, I think. I´m with you in that point, that it would be very Interesting what e.g. "Lotus sport" would change on the car. As already mentioned the list from Lotus of the done changes for a track or sporty elise was very long and it wears also some safety thoughts in it with regard to the increase of stressing the suspensionitems. These are informationtypes nobody else will have (constructionlayout, reserves)…

That all is not dramatic (ok, a broken toelink could be ), but we have to keep this in mind.

At least the complete story is to be aimed. And so we have to ask the important question: What do we like? Stock alternatives or a direction more in the way track? Sth in between?

Of course we have to start with the first step. But where do we want to go? (Different, I know ) Perhaps we should ask more for details like:

1. Stock alternativ (fresh material, good comfort)
2. more sporty (for hot cornering on legal roads - stiffer than stock but with rest comfort)
3. trackuse (basically for trackevents - near to none comfort)

… will project like he want to do and tells us, what he gets in result. Others will saddle on or will vary. What do you think?

AND last point: If you change one thing on an existing balanced system, most of all, you change everything and will have to change more items. Of course the rubber thingies for the wishbones, arb etc. are with respect to the age and also with the new requirements the next to be redesigned.

To your disappointing handlingexperience… Do you have other experiences too, to know how precize like a knife an elan could handle? In my view the technical layout is just state of the art without any electric helpers...


Kind regards

[XiPHiAS]

"Suspension" is more than dampers and springs, BUT they can do alot...

A. the function of the dampers and springs is to keep good roadcontact.
B. the function of all the rest: wisbones, rubbers, hinges, placement, settings, camber... to get a good handling.

KW does not change anythin on B, they only make A a lot better. So the dampers and springs will react scharper, faster and better than the original ones.
With the stiffer suspension from lets say KW, you will notice almost no bodyroll, and your car will be safer. Better road contact = better handling = saver driving also for road use.

Notice : I'm not talking about the lowering, just the replacement of the dampers and springs from KW. And with the Variante III you can set your own height if you want and that's a nice option, you don't need to use....

[thewheelrestorer]

Sure XIPHIAS is correct and I'm not doing a good enough job of ecplaining this ??

If KW or anyone else (Aftermarket) is to make a replacement shock absorber it will be exactly the same length and stroke.

Bilstein used to and still probably do list a Sprint Damper which has a shorter piston rod and hence stroke especially for those chaps that want to use lowered springs.

I wasn't thinking for one minute of lowering the vehicle, but as xiphias mentions, this is an option for those that do want to lower the ride height even its 5 mm, this function is possible as the lower spring pan is adjustable up and down.

Also the "Track " bit and the mention of "Race" must not be taken that an aftermarket suspension system is for the track some fo this marketing, and for sure most aftermarket shock absorbers are stiffer than a standard OE shock but that's the idea. Sure ride quality will suffer, and this is where the real clever engineers can actually uprate the damping characteristics and give less body roll (Bump), but allow good (rebound) abilities and allow a good ride quality as well.

Not too long ago, you put your SPAX shocks on your xr3i (Not me I hasten to add!) and it was as stiff as a board....and the rise quality was out the window !

Now Shock absorbers can multio task, and the ultimate system now is electronic, even 18 years ago I was in an Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 with electronic suspension that was either in "Auto" mode or "Sport" - Auto stiffened up the damping when you loaded the car into a bend and then softened down a straight over bumps etc..to give a nice ride.

The SPAX shocks has 14 position of adjustment, I spent approx 4+ hours once going down a stretch of road (2 miles) with several bends and hairpins in the fenlands Lincolnshire exploring every which combination of adjustment was best EG with 1 to 14 available at the front and rear axle.............this was on a classic (Now) Opel Manta !

I believe that LOTUS wanted as "stiff as possible" suspension to make the car handle sharp, but used the raft bushes to absorb the vibrations that would of occured if the stiff suspension was directly bolted to the chassis ???

There are as mentioned previosuly a lot of very very quick sports cars out there by major manufactures and they still benefit from aftermarket suspensions, not for the racetrack....we are talking for the road. A set up for the The track is a totally different animal, which is what I was trying to explain earlier in this thread when I expressed a race prepared Fiat Punto would embaress a road going Elan on a trackday.

Does or would anyone watching this thrilling thread have any experiences when changing the original shocks for the SJ versions ??? Or even new ones from Lotus ??

Please let me know what difference (If any) you found?

Regards

[Elanlover]

Look, as far as I'm concerned I think everyone is interested in a possible improvement in almost every area of the car. For example, mention brakes and everyone agrees they can be better. So, simply throwing out a "feeler" to see who's interested in a better suspension system for the car is too vague to have any meaning at all.

Sure, I want a better suspension. Does that actually do anything for you? I think not. So, asking for interest from people about floor mats is one thing (and there were lots of questions about those!) but asking for a show of interest about somehting as complex AND as critical as the suspension without much additional information is bound to generate tons of questions and commments before any show of interest is given.

Anyone can say they are interested but that means nothing until we know what's involved, what the improvements are and what it might cost. I doubt KW or any other company out there will be prepared to drop what they're doing to design a system for the Elan without firm comittments. And NO ONE (no one with a brain and/or with limits on their funds that is) will give a comittment to buy without knowing what's proposed, what the benefit is and what the cost will be.

Here's what my experience has been when it comes to these kinds of projects.

1. Someone comes up with a brilliant idea (some less brilliant than others)
2. Said person does all the research required to determine if the idea actually is brilliant and what pieces/parts are involved
2a. Person may actually develop a protoype at their own expense and try it out (optional but has been done many, many times)
3. Person reports back to the forum as to their findings and actual experience if applicable
4. Person asks if others are interested in said brilliant idea
5. If a sufficiently large enough group say "yes" then a group buy is started
6. We all benefit from the brilliant idea!

While I appreciate the sentiment, it seems to me that you're skipping right to step 4. Without having at least some of the facts from the first few steps I can't imagine anyone getting too excitied about this. Now, if you want to get the ball rolling and invest some time and energy into what a suspension upgrade might look like and do then tell us what you've found, that'd be great. But simply saying that "it'll be an improvment" doesn't get me excited. Maybe that's just me though..............