feeler : custom KW Suspension for our Lotus Elan << re

[Don.Hasi]

Perhaps I have done our common aim a bad support Sorry if so.

If KW or anyone else (Aftermarket) is to make a replacement shock absorber it will be exactly the same length and stroke.

With this and the statements above it sounds right clear. So lets start the development


Xiphias: I have meaned... we have to face the project beyond with B The rubbers need to be updated too regarding the age and km of them. Then, you will get the complete advantage of any other change.

I think we are now all together, aren´t we?



Elanlover: Your carpet-action was brilliant
although mines are not even there (I hope they will be produced next time-got the wrong colour...)

[Elanlover]

Elanlover: Your carpet-action was brilliant ...

Thanks, the missus thinks so too

[thewheelrestorer]

Hi,

I guess it must be me then ???

I'll have me last rant (Promise) and then I'll shut up with this thread (It's like having a pee on a windy day !!)

I've been involved in some fairly technical component design work in World Motorsport Racing (F1 & WRC) for 4 years I looked after Mclaren, BAR- Honda, Jordan- Spyker-Force India, Jaguar- Red Bull, Benetton/Renault, Minardi- Torro Rosso, Suzuki Junior World Rally Team, and Skoda WRC Teams.

Raced, Modified, Prepared, performed chassis geometry work for myself for over 15 years, and have modified many many many Road cars over 18 years.

I've also been trained in upteen product technical presentation sessions every year at Demon Tweeks (since 1995) organsied by the top suspension companies in the world for Road Applications: Koni, Bilstein, Ohlins, Monroe, KW, Spax, Whiteline, Tein, Sachs etc..etc...Not to mention the hundreds of customers I've serviced wanting to tune their cars handling over 7 years..........

Then I worked with Koni (Holland) in 2006 as an area UK sales manger on a new damper technology called FSD, anyone heard of this ?? It's a mechanical shock absorber that gives a great ride quality and then when loaded up to a set frequency Loading (Mid to hard cornering) it stiffens up !!! It's Quite good, but it's not listed for the Elan......Sorry!!

What bugs me is as you said:

"mention brakes and everyone agrees they can be better.

but mention The Word "suspension" which is a multitude of parts bolted together and a few people freak out with the idea that the shock absorber and / or spring is going to dramatically change their car !!! ................It will not.

This makes me think these people are not understanding what a shock and spring do?


A shock absorber is full of oil, it's a very very basic thing really which was designed back in the (1950's from memory?) which extends and compresses. The speed of compression in and out are governed by the amount of oil that can transfer from one side of the shock body to the other. You know those Coffee caffetiere things where you push the knob (Piston) down and the filter filter goes all the way to the bottom this is how a shock absorber fundamentally works. There are literally hole(s) or valves that govern the amount of oil that can flow through from the top to the bottom. What I'm trying to describe is it's all very easy stuff to an aftermarket manufacturer, to measure an original shock and copy it. Most mass produced shock absorbers are not that trick even on High Performance cars.................Porsche know how to make a car handle, so do Ferrari................they don't make shock absorbers the big boys do, and you can buy aftermarket shocks and springs that outperform the original equipement.

And don't forget KONI make OE suspension I believe the Lotus Elise uses Koni Shock Absorbers.

You also mentioned:

"Sure, I want a better suspension. Does that actually do anything for you? ...I think not."

Why do you think not, ??

Do you think a Hi-Spec brake kit will not do anything for you? ..........you do............ why's that? Lotus wouldn't design a Braking system that was pants would they ???

An aftermarket suspension system will make your Elan more comfortable, you will notice less crashes, bangs and vibration as you travel down the road!

When you tip your car into a roundabout or a 90 degree bend, the weight transfer will ease slowly with great poise and control and there will be no drama or uneasy moments that make you or your car twitchy instead the car will be a dream to drive. Lotus have done all the hard work...........the geometry and the suspension design.

If you're thinking your car is a dream to drive now? You're not driving hard enough, if you don't want to drive any harder that's cool no problem.
Some people do and can and this does not mean they are nutters, it can be amazing what can be acheived and improved upon further. A basic good solid well set up designed handling car can be really awesome when assisted further with even better parts.

There are people on the road that are ntuters for sure, but a good driver can out drive and out pace a poor driver and or nutter in equipment less superior. EG I can outbrake some drivers in their hot hatches in my Van ! seriously.

The shock & Spring assembly just has a simple job to do............go up and down. How it goes up and down differs from oe to aftermarket.

Most aftermarket systems can give you a little harder ride, some not.

You and some others may not like a harder ride..........no problem this is your choice and everyone is different in what they want from their cars ?

The KW system in question is not as hard as most because uses 2 springs (One of top of each other) and also trick shock absorber valving for the oil to flow in different ways dependant on the amount of load and also the speed of the weight transfer. EG A quick flick of the steering wheel to the left and all the static weight on the left side will transfer and push towards the right side of the car putting more pressure on the front right and rear right shock absorbers. If this is done slowly the valving eases the oil through nicely, if this is done quicker the valve reacts in a way that the oil gallery runs slowly and hence gives you more resistance and damping, in other words some cars when "tipped" into a corner can literally feel like a wheelbarow and tip falling forward of themselves...I could go on but it's gets difficult to explain but this sytem tightens when you need it (Cornering) and softens when you need it (Straight line over bumps)

You mentioned:

"without much additional information is bound to generate tons of questions and commments before any show of interest is given."

Sure but looking at another component like the brakes or a chip would this be the same type? EG You can't mess up the handling with aftermarket etc...Lotus know best ?

" Without having at least some of the facts from the first few steps I can't imagine anyone getting too excitied about this"
simply saying that "it'll be an improvment" doesn't get me excited.

Then if this is the case, Elan owners must be a different breed ?? Because every other forum out there Scoobies, 350Z Nissans, GTiR Sunny, Porsche 911's, Ferrari 355's, MR2's, Boxster's, Escort Cosworth, Focus RS, M3's, M5's the list goes on.............all love aftermarket suspension. What I've never seen or heard though is a response that it a real big thing that an alternative shock and spring would ruin a Car...............unless as mentioned previously you're not looking to improve your car's handling because it's good enough for you.............which is fine , I have no Problem with this at all.

Everthing is relative to what people know and have experienced..............Some people think their Citroen Saxo is fast, (Fair enough) some think indoor Go-Karts are fast!!!

I did in 1994, then I went and bough a Professional Racing Kart, then learnt heaps about driving on another level...totally... then I progressed to a more powerful better handling class.

My current machine will out corner everything almost up a F1 car to a degree......honestly.
A kart has no suspension !! (You could say from this statement that I know nothing about suspension then !! Which is funny!) a Kart frame twists and bends, its another form of resistance like a shock and spring resists the forces put upon it.

My kart can accelerate from a standstill to good old 60 mph in 3 seconds. Imagine dropping the clutch sitting still when the lights go green and the engine is pulling 14,0000 RPM
Then you project forwards at a fair velocity............this performance is from a 125cc engine !! with 6 gears.... Water cooled, electric fuel pumps etc etc...

On a short circuit (Lots of twisty corners and less than 1 mile) my 48 BHP Kart is only less than 1 second slower per lap than a 250cc Kart. These on a long circuit are quicker than Mr.Valentino Rossi on his Moto GP Motorcycle at some circuits.............The kart will only top 155-160MPH, the Bike over 200mph.............but the Kart handles and goes round corners quicker than the Bike............It's all handling and this is something that I'm well into.

I've been sniffing at the Elan for a while, partly due to the general knowledge that they are one fo the best front whel drivers. I can see the potential but the 18 year old bird that I've purchased is worn out and needs lots of TLC to show it's true potential

I hope I can find it.........

Goodnight.

[GeoffSmith]

Maybe that's just me though..............

You're not alone.

The brakes are generally accepted as being poor and several well engineered improvements have been developed and taken up en-masse.

ESM has shown that there is a lot more performance to be had following extensive investigations and research and he's sold quite a few mountains.

The handling is generally accepted as being very good for road use and I personally can't see that changing springs and dampers alone will give a proportionate improvement. Nobody is saying that changes would ruin the car's handling, rather that given Lotus' reputation for suspension and innovative design to minimise the inherent problems with front wheel drive, the changes may adversely affect some other attribute - we're not talking about improving a mass market car where there is so much more scope for improvement. Perhaps if people are concerned with the handling, they should consider comparing it with another member's car / checking all the bushes / getting the geometry checked. You could of course buy an Elise, but given the option, which would you choose for a long journey?

[L.G.]

My comments if they are worth anything: I think Elan's suspension could be improved. My car leans in tight corners I think that's not uncommon as I see pictures taken on trackdays here and there. Now I think that could be solved with a better spring damper assembly. The trouble with that is, no major manufacturer (by major I mean the big boys) make a readily avaliable kit for the Elan. That means a custom one has to be made. Not a big deal if you've got the cash for it.

It would be worth considering such an option if the suspension upgrade can really improve the handling without ruining the ride because that's, well the point of the car. If it stiffens the ride to a degree where it is noticable I think we loose the originality. And comfort is, from what I've read on the forum, the only downfall of the AVO's, don't count me on that though ask someone using them.

The reason why people are not willing to change their set up is I think because the only area where Lotus really worked on the car fully themselves is the suspension. Chassis, body, obviously but if you think of the rest, some main stuff engine, gearbox, brakes all come from different places. And because Lotus is famed in this area; just like KONI and others are famed at suspension parts; and they worked hard on the car people believe in their work.

In terms of danger I think we'd be alright until some point because many people have fitted anti roll bars, AVO dampers and SJ's springs etc. Now none of that stuff is original but they work and can be adjusted. A better system built using new technology could be an improvement.

On a personal point I won't be putting my name on the interested list because of the way I think about cars, at least now. I think a 20 year old car should have it's 20 year old suspension especially if it's such a rare car. That's just me though.

If you, Xiphias or thewheel man, are not decided on KW and you just want a modern and better suspension I think Lotus could be an option as well. If you think of the Esprit project that was linked on this thread, they had to design an uprated kit for a handful of models (albeit the car was updated on those 25 years so the same car but there should be some changes in all those years) The number of Esprits on road may be higher but if enough interest could be found it could work. The reasoning behind the Lotus idea is; people will believe (well at least hope) they'll do a proper job, (I'm not saying the companies mentioned will be bad it's just Lotus made the car in the first place and they design a lot of cars) they'll also know the stuff you're talking about rebound and something dampers (sorry I got lost somewhere ), and if I'm not missing something the price would be similar with a high end aftermarket setup.

Good luck with your project, if you decide to go further anyway...in the meantime enjoy your car.

Cheers,
L.G.

[Grayone]

Excellent stuff. I admire those who can improve the design of anything. Given that the design is (a) 20+ years old, and (b) built to a price in the first place, then there must be room for improvement.

Just how you use this improvement under 'normal' road conditions I am not sure. Obviously on the track things are different.

Personally, I have been advised to go out in the early morning at the weekends in order to enjoy what my Elan can offer in terms of performance and handling. Otherwise it is likely I will come across a horse and rider, or even, forbid, horror - a greyone! And that is just with my bog standard Elan...

btw How come some of you guys can type so fast, or write so much?

[thewheelrestorer]

Thanks for your positive comments Greyone, T

V. Interesting point about not being able to explore and enjoy driving as the population and amount of cars on the road is vast!!

Typing I do with 1 finger from my left and 2 fingers from my right hands !!! And I've been in jobs where I need to inout information for over 15 years now, so with all that practice I can type almost as fast as I can think, and faster than I can write !!!

I think you're spot on with the costing remark that any production car is typically allocated an amount of time to design components, obviously the big budgets like the Gordon Murray designed Mclaren F1 will reflect on the price of the car, the designers can go to town becasue the car's price will be going to town etc.... !!

Having spent 4 years working with Mclaren formula one team, amongst 9 others, these guys are the best race teams in the world and unyet they persistently, and constantly strive to better every single component on the race car. They are literally obsessed with winning and again at all costs, even when they are winning the development , pressure and desire doesn't stop of anything it becomes more intense.

This part of my career was very rewarding as I realsied that my natural characteristics are the same, when you make a car go faster and contribute to a team and driver winning it's a fantastic feeling of acheivment that you want to do it again and again, and you gain more and more confidence to tackle every problem with a solution and adhere a mindset that nothing is impossible .

If it was my job to get another solution to the Elan Shock & Spring assembly and take the ride quality and body control in to the next few decades (Before an electronic version becomes available) I would love to do so, and progress would be made at a rate of knotts!

I guess looking back on some of the forum comments on this curcial suspsension subject, I can understand a bit more that when folk don't know about stuff (technically) and / or don't have an (open mindset)....or the winning desire to improve and suceed then it must be difficult for them to comprehend.

The thoughts that : ("it has to be Lotus only or you'll mess up the geometry) & (No body else in the world can make the car better etc..) would not go down too well with a team or an individual with a great desire to win and make improvements.

Good luck with your Driving , I always find an early sunday morning quite a good time for going out for a blast, or when it's raining.........I used to spend hundreds of pounds on fuel driving round Milton Keynes and especially in the wet as :

1. I had at the time one of the most balanced sportscars from the 80's.... A Porsche 944.
2. Nobody went ou tin the rain, which was great and I learnt so much about road car control it was awesome..

Ciao,

[theelanman]

erm....I think youre looking at this all wrong.....???
unless youre redesigning the car..new chassis etc most of the above is irrelevant......
I dont understand what youre trying to do.......call me a bit thick if you like, but the rest of the car is designed around the drive train....and you want to redesign the drive train to improve the suspension...and/or handling??????????....have I got that bit right???.....
I have been to the pub......sorry.....
even so.....surely ££££££ is the biggest factor.....then weight especially if your talking the magnetic shocks.....
when you bear in mind that the top end of a 20year old car is £10k.....then what kind of £££ would be spent on a redevelopment of the drivetrain....
I would think that for the use the car gets the current set up in more than adequate......as a track/race car then ask one of the guys who use their cars on track days or for racing (although Ive still not seen an elan m100 in a race line up yet).......
the mclaren rage of cars is a little limited and the budget is possibly a little out of the range of most people here so....erm.....I still dont get it....
sorry ...Im just confused


ok edit....

just reread the above.....thin Im talkin bollox.....ish
altho I still dont get it.....surely stiffer springs...bigger anti roll bars...firmer shocks....different bushing......thats the way to go...
however if you do all this....certainly for the uk cars....dont forget the dental plan for when you rattle yer teeth out...oh and the osteopath to sort yer back problems out.......you may also need more sikaflex to stick all your loose car bits back on....

[theelanman]

ah bo!!ox ignore me Im pi$$ed.......

[Nige]

[paulwatkins]

G, you definately need to spray some WD40 on your 'full-stop' key!




I for one think that this development should be explored. Even if the outcome is that it can't be improved (which I doubt!), you'll never find out unless its investigated.

We've all seen the pics of the Elan wallowing around a bend on track! And personally, I've worn holes in my whelarch liners doing single short-lap sprint events. Not doing the tyre wear any good So I'll be watching with interest. I wont be signing up just yet. It depends on cost. It may turn out cheaper for me to buy 10 years worth of rubber.

[Monty]

IMHO,

There`s absolutely nothing wrong with the stock suspension for Normal road use or fast country lane blats, but as i`ve said before in the future members will need to replace there suspension so we do need alternatives.
If you do intend doing Trackdays then stiffer spring, adjustable dampers & maybe a stiffer rear anti-rollbar is the way to go. But just doing those upgrade doesn`t autmatically make a better handling car and if not done correctly can mke things worst. I suffer alot off understeer on track and know that my set up needs looking at hence why i will be going down the route with shorter stiffer springs which Bob Brown (BTW this guy does know his stuff) is looking into with Eibach, also he noted that my damper rods will need to be cut down to compansate for the shorter springs to keep them under the correct load.

Lets see what KW come up with and they should be able to give a rough price and there dampers & springs

[thewheelrestorer]

Blimey mr. elanman that'll be some good amber nextar you've been swigging !!!


You're already admitted your "liquer" sporting question was not in the same ball park? and 4 sure the Elan doesn't need redesigning or needs a new chassis or anything remotely to do with the drive train apart from a Yamaha R1 Engine in the front and Rear wheel Drive !!!!!!........but That's a subject for another day I think

"££££££ is the biggest factor....." for sure and as previsouly mentioned if anything ever comes up of this, then be prepared for a 4 figure sum. It may not be for many people but those few that can justify a high cost for something unique may consider it?

I do bear in mind that the top end of a 20year old car is £10k but you do get many car crazy nutters spending thousands on their pride and joy and they will never get it back !!

The mclaren reference was aimed that :had Lotus of sold the Elan as a higher end price tag sports car the shocks, springs, brakes, et etc...would all of been much higher spec that's all.

"surely stiffer springs...bigger anti roll bars...firmer shocks....different bushing......thats the way to go..."

Yes it is the usual route, but and as you've mentioned some of the components will have a trade off or downside to stiffening everything up......................Less Movement and predominantly less ride comfort.

However the KW 2 coil spring system has 1 very soft coil and 1 at a much harder rate, these can work independantly and give you a good ride for a change............I say for a change because normally on a sports spring (Stiffer than original) it has a harder poundage (resistance) and you have to accept it 's stiffer and more controlled than the original but more harsh and solid and hence any road lumps and bumps will be less comfortable.

So a "dental plan for when you rattle yer teeth out"...or an "osteopath to sort yer back problems out." may not be required.............

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


MONTY.........There`s absolutely nothing wrong with the stock suspension for Normal road use or fast country lane blats,

I agree, but design gets better and better and I have no doubt an improvement can be made, you mentioned :
"I suffer a lot off understeer on track"

You can even try a few things with a stock set up befor you change any components to see how the chassis reacts:

Have you tried higher tyre pressures in the rear ? An understeering car is "ploughing on forwards" the front wheel are turned but the rubbr molecules have given up clinging on to the tarmac! Either the car is tipping so far over that the contact patch is reduced due to adverse camber ................

(Which shouldn't happen with the wishbobe set up - like it does with front wheel drive Mapherson - which is why Lotus helped GM with mapherson design and improved it vastly but decided not to use it for their own car!)

Or the car's balance is so far forward that the front tyres are talking too much of the loading, if you look at the good end (Rear) and not the problem end (front) you can work on making the good end naughty !!

In other words...unless you've not gone in to a corner too hot and the car is still understeering like a pig........Imagine if the rear started to break away a bit more than it's curently doing which I believe is zero.....then the car 's attitude will be more neutral and the slip angles of the front and rear will be similar.
The rear tyre has the same amount of contact patch (Same size tyre - Profile, width diameter) as the front unyet it does not have the same amount of weight pushing on it ! The poor old front is going to give up clinginf to the tarmac first, although Lotus will of built a natural amount of understeer in to the car for jow bloggs to recognise he is pusjing his car to a limit..........if then had a snappy rear ended car the public would label it another deathtrap like the early Porsche 911 !

But for the track you're having a look at your limits and also the car you're driving, so it means you can experiment a bit more and then you'll be prepared for the outcome.

A harder tyre pressure in the rear will allow the grip or slip angle to be increased and in other words the grip will be reduced quicker when it's loaded up, you may need to be adverse with the increase for example front 28 rear 34 ish... maybe more ? but be careful.........

"shorter stiffer springs on the front" may not be the answer and this may cause more understeer? The end of the car that is not behaving needs more movement, whenit's movement is too stiff or at the end of its travel it starts to slide........

You may also only need to lower the ride height 10mm which would not need the damper rods to be cut down, there are lots of lots of things you can try but this takes a lot of time..........you can see why Ferrari had it's own private test track in Italy ! I don't think thisis fair IMHO because no other F1 teams have their own!

I believe their is a track day today at Donington today ? ........I only know because we fitted some slicks to a customers wheel set yesterday..........
I bet that'll be wet and windy to say the least !!!

Regards

[RayD]

Have you tried higher tyre pressures in the rear ?

Roger,

Strangely, when I considered the understeering problem on another post I suggested the exact opposite. I thought it might have been better to have less pressure in the back.

Having not driven one quick enough to find out and only going on the reports from Monty, Nige and others, I was working on the assumption that the car was understeering as opposed to the front sliding.

I thought they could induce an amount of oversteer to counteract it by having less pressure in the rears.

Considering some of the remarks about tyre temperature they’ll naturally adjust themselves to having more pressure in the front.

I’m only referring to understeering and oversteering brought about by the side wall flex.

Ray

[thewheelrestorer]

Hi Ray,

It's a formula I've learnt and applied to road and my racing karts, which looking at making the good end bad always works.

I don't always fully understand what's happening when as you say sometimes an increase in pressure can give more bite and grip and assist as I think this helps the sidewall become stiffer from the higher pressure and hence stops the tyre sidewall collapsing under hard cornering and hence the wheel does not "fold" under the car and slide.

The golden rule is the problem end needs more movement and the good end less to bring them both towards each other and find a "Neutral" balance.

There is nothing more satisfying that being able to agressively throw a 4 wheel machine into a corner and with no understeer, but also no oversteer.

Usually more pressures in the rear will make the car slide, if you look at the extreme sport of "drifting" they have exactly this dilema that they need the rear end to slide constantly, under steady stae and high loading corners and hence they have high pressures in the back to break this traction. They then literally "saw" away at the steering wheel to change the slide from one direction to the other.

My Racing 125cc Gearbox kart has over 400 BHP per tonne power to weight ratio which means the loud pedal has to be pressed slowly sometimes as it can suffer from a lot of wheelspin.........because of this we run higher tyre pressures in the front to allow the kart to understeer into an apex of a corner, when it starts to do this you get on the throttle which kicks in a lot of power from 9000 RPm up to 14,000 and the chassis neutralises itself , straigtens up with no underster or oversteer an just brilliant cornering force (up to 3G!).

I had one of those creamy smooth V6 2.5 Vectra jobbies once, bought it to clean up and sell, the torque was quite impresssive from the motor, but the chassis YUK !!! It could not handle the powerplant by a country mile, I usually drive one handed (a habit ! the left hand sits on top of the gearstick!).....but I had to firmly keep both hands on the steering wheel to avoid it pushing me in the hedge. Anyway I lowered the front pressures and raised the rears and this helped.............the front tyres had more "movement" and being softer allowed the power to load up easier, and the rear tyres (Which just follow anyway) were stiff unough to allow the rear of the car to be stiff and slighly begin thinking about some oversteer. I didn't really have this car anywhere it's limit, because I didn;t trust it............

Funnily enough or not I drove a Lotus elise Mk2 last year and yes for sure it was light and agile but I didn't like the feel and wasn't confident to throw it around !! I read somewhere Lotus have soften the suspension now?

ciao,

[ailwyn]

I guess looking back on some of the forum comments on this curcial suspsension subject, I can understand a bit more that when folk don't know about stuff (technically) and / or don't have an (open mindset)....or the winning desire to improve and suceed then it must be difficult for them to comprehend.

I'd be very careful about mouthing off in such a way, there are people around here with lots of knowledge and experience, be it M100, rally, tracking, suspension, drivetrain, anything else you'd care to think of (myself not included). Other's are putting a lot of effort into finding alternatives for the M100, you trying to shout them down without backing it up with an alternative is neither constructive nor warranted.

If it was my job to get another solution to the Elan Shock & Spring assembly and take the ride quality and body control in to the next few decades (Before an electronic version becomes available) I would love to do so, and progress would be made at a rate of knotts!

Talk is cheap, either get to work and put a researched and viable proposal on the table, or shut the f**k up!

[RayD]

...Usually more pressures in the rear will make the car slide,

I think we’re using the same words for different things...

The terms...Understeer and Oversteer...seem to have changed over the years.

It seems they are now being used to describe sliding, and front and rear wheel skids.

The way I look at it...

I only consider Understeer and Oversteer as the tyres capacity for “walking” across the road due to the flex in the side walls. In other words, car tyres are doing it all the time when cornering, usually going un-noticed and to the same degree back and front.

I realise everyone knows this...I’m just writing it for continuity...

As the speed increases, a front wheel drive car will understeer, under power, but it’s not in a front wheel slide. It’s just the blocks of tyre tread are landing further across the road than the previous block did due to the flex in the side walls. They could still be applying the normal amount of grip.

Increasing the pressure will lessen a tyres capacity for u/s or o/s and increase its capacity for sliding.

It’s not possible to have Understeer and Oversteer on a car fitted with solid tyres.

The track day problem has only been described in terms of “understeering”...now if they meant it was going into a front wheel skid it’s a different matter.

If it was limited to understeering under power I still think lowering the pressure in the rears will induce oversteer to counteract it.

I’d also mentioned trying lower profile tyres on the front and higher profile ones on the back for the same reason.

Ray

[Elanlover]

Mr. thewheelrestorer, I don't think you're hearing the message properly.

I don't think anyone's against improving the suspension. No one has said that at all. No one has said that it can't be improved. No one has said that Lotus is perfect and made an "un-improvable" suspension system. What has been said is that the idea is nice but without any real facts presented about exactly how you propose to improve it, what the improvement will be and at what the cost its just a nice idea. That's ok too but no one here is likely to jump on a bandwagon without a little more to go on other than what you've posted which basically amounts to "who ehere wants to sign up for a better suspension". You may very well have a lot of knowledge about these things. I don't know, I can't tell and, quite frankly, I don't care (not to be taken personally). On this forum, your level of knowledge gets accredited by deeds, not talk. You've done a lot of talking but we haven't seen anything concrete from you on this subject as yet.

However, you may want to consider that there are people on this forum that know a substantial amount about this car and collectively, perhaps more about than some folks at Lotus (bound to happen with all the tinkering and when you rebuild a few). So, don't dismiss the comments and questions so quickly from the people whose interest you are trying to solicit. If you want people to get interested tell us exactly what you are proposing. Shocks, springs, both, more, what changes from stock, the anticipated (or desired) result, possible costs, etc. When you do that you can expect people to ask even more questions and provide more comments. Which, by the way, is a good indication of "interest"

[Monty]

Some good comments made there.

I have to agree with Thewheelrestorer on the tyre pressure and understeer, more pressure equals less grip (to an extent)

We seem to be going slightly, this is XiPHiAS thread and lets see what he comes up with

Lets start the list:

1. Xiphias
2. thewheelrestorer
3. Dico
4. Richard K

[thewheelrestorer]

think we’re using the same words for different things...

The terms...Understeer and Oversteer...seem to have changed over the years.

It seems they are now being used to describe sliding, and front and rear wheel skids.

The way I look at it...

I only consider Understeer and Oversteer as the tyres capacity for “walking” across the road due to the flex in the side walls. In other words, car tyres are doing it all the time when cornering, usually going un-noticed and to the same degree back and front.

I realise everyone knows this...I’m just writing it for continuity...
Hi Ray,

Yes the terms under and oversteer are often used in opposite ways, I don't know if it's American terminolgy? but the way I interpret it I've used since 1990 and have discussed it with F1 engineeers etc, also Martin Brundle on the TV F1 coverage describes it the same way so I'll stick to this description:

Understeer: The front wheels are turning or have turned and unyet the car is going forwards and not where the wheels are pointing.
Oversteer: The rear of the car is breaking loose and is attempting to spin the car around.

Both of these characteristics can happen with a front, rear or four wheel drive car, and occur under corner entry, mid corner, and corner exits.

Too much throttle on a corner exit and the classic symptoms of rear wheel drive oversteer, and front wheel drive understeers.

I'm not sure which and where exactly "Ray" has this handling trait?

Regards