feeler : custom KW Suspension for our Lotus Elan << re

[RayD]

I agree with you Roger,

But... before “Understeer” globally meant...

“The front wheels are turning, or have turned, and yet the car is going forwards and not where the wheels are pointing”

...you could tell the difference between the perfectly normal characteristic of a car having a tendency to go straight on in a controllable fashion... and going through a kebab shop window with the front wheels locked up on an icy road.

Now...two completely different things have been rolled into one

Ray

[thewheelrestorer]

Ailwyn, I've just read the whole thread top to bottom and would like to defend myself from your rude comments:

[quote][/quote]
I'd be very careful about mouthing off in such a way, there are people around here with lots of knowledge and experience, be it M100, rally, tracking, suspension, drivetrain, anything else you'd care to think of."[quote][/quote]

Ok, the general jist of the thread early on was from the originator xiphias and myself attempting to inform you all that the company in question are of the highest quality, you didn't or don't have to take our word for it, but could find out for yourself first from the KW website link xiphias quoted.

I've been shy and bullied for 25 years then I came out my shell and I'm now with age very direct, open and honest..........I'm assuming the other forum members that also have extensive knowlege in shock absorbers, spring rates and handling characteristics are being quiet? however I 'm confident enough to vent my views which I beleive are 100% pure and honest. When black is black, I can not sit down and watch people calling it white !

A few members were concerned about the geometry changing !!! This is not the case, nobody else corrected these people so I did it instead.

[quote][/quote]"Other's are putting a lot of effort into finding alternatives for the M100"[quote][/quote]

Sure, alhough apart from Eibach being mentioned unless I'm mistaken I have not seen any other threads for a potential shock absorber replacement? and you may or may not think one is needed, which is ok but if such a system was available that I and other people like (xiphias) were familar with and also knew was a real piece of kit then surely it's worth us shouting about it?

14 years ago I started a job being trained and advising people on road car suspension availability, compatability and set up. If you did this or anyone else for such a length of time I think you or anyone else would understand AVO and the units from SJ are not really in the same ball park as KW! With all due respect It's almost like comparing George at ASDA to Armani.


[quote][/quote]"you trying to shout them down without backing it up with an alternative is neither constructive nor warranted.[quote][/quote]

I really don't understand this? I'm all for a good coil over system...please explain?



[quote][/quote]
Talk is cheap, either get to work and put a researched and viable proposal on the table, or shut the f**k up![quote][/quote]

I don't get this either? Xiphias is looking in to KW possibly looking a making a set of coil overs for the elan, not me?? I'm just endorsing it and your swearing at me ?

[quote][/quote]elan lover Said:

[quote][/quote]"I don't think anyone's against improving the suspension. No one has said that at all. No one has said that it can't be improved. No one has said that Lotus is perfect and made an "un-improvable" suspension system.[quote][/quote]

I disagree:

bob brown has 5 Removed posts ..Why's that ?

b]there's only on f in Geof Smith said:
[quote][/quote]-it is unlikely that anyone could successfully reverse engineer the OEM setup properly to come up with an accurate baseline and finally, there were only ever a few thousand manufactured[quote][/quote]

Elan lover has also added............
[quote][/quote]"What's missing for me is an objective report. For me to get interested I'd want to see KW look over the car, analyse the currentsuspension then provide a report that describes exactly what they'd do, what improvements it would make and at what cost. Right no you're asking us to sign up for a large investment without any description other than "it'll be better". That's not enough for me to part with thousands of dollars[quote][/quote]

I'm not asking anything from anyone ?

[quote][/quote]"Sure, I want a better suspension. Does that actually do anything for you? I think not."[quote][/quote]

How on earth does anyone anwswer that? does it do anything !!

[quote][/quote]"People are attached to their Elan's and if you're asking people to jump onboard your group buy then you better be prepared to justify why regardless of whether you think the comments are "negative" or not."[quote][/quote]

I'm not asking anyone to jump on board? Xiphias is asking for interest, I'm just endorsing the product he is reccomending...

[quote][/quote]Without having at least some of the facts from the first few steps I can't imagine anyone getting too excitied about this. Now, if you want to get the ball rolling and invest some time and energy into what a suspension upgrade might look like and do then tell us what you've found, that'd be great. But simply saying that "it'll be an improvment" doesn't get me excited. Maybe that's just me though.............[quote][/quote]

It's Just a question of interest, the details will follow from xiphias.........!!


Lets get the list up and running again for him......:

1. Xiphias
2. thewheelrestorer
3. Dico
4. Richard K
5.

ciao,

[bobbrown]

Lets get one thing straight I removed the posts because I refuse to get drawn in to a discussion about a "suspension system" when the comments I read are rubbish.
The suspension is a "system" and you CAN NOT take the spring and shock in isolation.

bob

[XiPHiAS]

Lets get one thing straight I removed the posts because I refuse to get drawn in to a discussion about a "suspension system" when the comments I read are rubbish.
The suspension is a "system" and you CAN NOT take the spring and shock in isolation.

bob

So... all the suspensionkits like Bilstein, Koni, KW and many other high end aftermarket suspensions are rubbish? You are kidding me!

I know BMW CSL's with KW (variante III suspension) and AP Racing bigbrakes thats perform a lot better.
So the people that upgrade the suspension and brakes on a BMW E46 M3 CSL (or other cars) are nuts?
So BMW is a bad developer of suspension : no
So BMW is a bed developer of brakingsystems : no
But ... YES we can improve it, because BMW need to ... aaargh I don't want to say (write) 10x the same...

But one thing is very clear for me, people with the most negative reactions simply does not know a good aftermarket suspension and never felt or drive a car with such a system...

I think I go for the suspension for myself, and just drop the feeler and idea to let them do a small run of the suspension kits for the LEC-Members.
And bye-bye when we are cornering on the (bumpy) roads or the circuit

[bobbrown]

XiPHiAS

That is not what I said.
Why oh why do people misconstrue what is said.
I did not say that aftermarket suspension systems are rubbish, I said you can not change just the spring and shock with out taking the suspension system as a whole into account.
The subject is very complex and a lot of factors have to be taken into account.
I looked at KW's site and the fact that their UK address looks like a house and their US location is in the middle of no where does not inspire me with a great deal of confidence.
So how many race/rally cars have you built and run?
None I suspect, I have built them from the ground up, bare shell to complete car and I am not talking some thing that is a known quantity like a Mk2 Escort.
As a note the Mk2 Escort in Group 4 trim still runs with Bilstein inserts as they have proven in competition to be the best and that is technology from the 70’s then and today!

[theelanman]

its happening again....

[thewheelrestorer]

I've seen all this silly banter before on forums............

It's pretty sad.........

You could say it's part of it, an online discussion which sometimes can turn a little agressive because one party doesn't agree with the others views etc......

It's best that the FACTS are looked at really, and in a nutshell every car ever made can be improved upon, because as time goes by improvements in technology and a better understanding happens all the time.

[ailwyn]

You could say it's part of it, an online discussion which sometimes can turn a little agressive because one party doesn't agree with the others views etc......

It's best that the FACTS are looked at really, and in a nutshell every car ever made can be improved upon, because as time goes by improvements in technology and a better understanding happens all the time.

Nobody is disputing that technology moves on, or that the suspension/handling could be improved for track use.

FACT: Bob is looking at the suspension setup including corner weights and ARBs - i.e. the suspension system (this in conjunction with improving/redesigning the braking system)

FACT: The proposal that your backing is a spring/dampers only, and currently only a proposal to approach the company.

FACT: There are people here with the ability/experience to re-design the M100 from the ground up as a race/track car if anyone is willing to invest the cash, however at last estimate it would cost ~£20K for this work, which is more than most would be willing/able to spend on a £10K car.

FACT: Despite what appears to me to be an offer to come up with an alternative in your post above, you're still not stepping up and doing the work!

FACT: Threads on forums only descend into heated arguments when persons with inflated egos wade in with a load of unsubstantiated opinion.

Enough facts?

[theelanman]

it would also appear that one side have asked and are working in conjunction with the suspension designers...
whilst the other side seem to be knowing more than the suspension designers (eg bilstein, avo, spax, eisbech etc...)
mmmmmm

I think that cooperation rather than contradiction would be better....dont forget that things seem to lose something in translation once we start typing

I know how to tie a knot...doesnt mean I can sew......

[inkitin]

Well I think it's a real shame we've got to this point on this really interesting thread. I'm not even sure how it's managed to get to this point of angry retorts !!

As a complete ignoramus, I was lapping up the detailed information that was being posted and the opinions being expressed.

If it continues like this I suppose it will be locked eventually !

Come on guys let's remember why we are here. Simply a massive interest in an extraordinary motor car.

Roland

[theelanman]

we should help each other not contradict each other.......

[ailwyn]

There is nothing wrong with a difference of opinion, but you need to be able to back it up, not just throw in a load of diatribe without substance.

Can we keep this to suspension and not get into a forum etiquette discussion, happy for anyone to start a thread on the subject if they so desire, but here isn't the place.

[Elanlover]

I think we've gotten off to a bad start on this thread. I'm sure we can all agree that's not where anyone intended it to go. Might also be useful to remind ourselves that it was XiPHiAS, not thewheelrestorer that first posted about the idea to approach KW even though he's now taking the brunt of the comments.

Perhaps we could all agree that the idea of a better suspension is a good one. That "better" still needs to be defined. Better for the track, for the road, for both? That there are many ways of approaching this - Bob's started looking at it, XiPHiAS/thewheelrestorer has an idea, SJ already sells a stiffer front spring and ProTech shock setup, etc. That there's not much point in getting serious about one approach until the details of it are released (whether that be Bob, XiPHiAS or anyone else) even though its fine to ask who might be interested in possible improvements. And, we don't need to have people's resumes published here as a way to say I know what I'm talking about and you don't. As I said earlier, the fact that someone has experience in one area is nice - but until you produce some results for this car (Elan) its just words on paper. Anyone care to hear about my credentials in sales and marketing????? Maybe in mats, custom aluminum pedals and door sills or fascia mask redesigns

Maybe we could also agree to try to start over and play nice? There canonly be benefits coming from multiple paths on a project. That's true even if one or more end up as being the wrong path a then we'd know what not to do

[Sy V]

Thanks Blair.
Constructive and helpful words.

[RayD]

we should help each other not contradict each other.......

Sorry Gareth... I was contradicting Roger, but trying to be helpful at the same time

I couldn’t disagree more about the tyre pressures. He thinks one thing... and I think the opposite, and Jay agrees with him...but I can’t see us falling out over it.

Ray

[dapinky]

I couldn’t disagree more about the tyre pressures. He thinks one thing... and I think the opposite, and Jay agrees with him...but I can’t see us falling out over it.
Ray

I hope no-one falls out over it!

Just to try and quantify the tyre pressure thing, i know that both parties swear by what they have done, and will cite personal results to back up the arguement....

...and that my be where the confusion comes from.....

...a lower profile tyre with stiff side walls and medium traction compound will react totally different to a higher profile tyre with soft side walls and a more grippy compound (in relation to pressures).

In my opinion (and experience) sometimes a higher pressure works better than a low one, and vice versa - it depends on loads of other things aswell - ie amount of suspension travell/resistance and road surface.

In an ideal world a car would be set up for each track/road each time we go out (like the pro racers do it), but we don't live in an ideal world, so accept compromise.

If we want to be right on the edge, you need a complete package which 'nearly' slips across the road, but still maintains traction - easy in theory, but not in practice, hence all the differing opinions on here

Unfortunately, that old git Isaac Newton came up with a few ideas which will ALWAYS apply, no matter what WE want

***********************************************************************

To get back on topic,

I refer to my first post in the thread - i had not heard of this company (now i have!), but if they are as good as claimed, great!

Personally, i won't be spending a four figure sum on the system, as i wouldn't get the benefit out of it for the cost involved, but there are others on here who either have more money than sence and will buy it because 'it is there', not because they *need* it, and there are others who would get the benefit and will save up the cash to get it - but only if the system can be shown to be a valid improvement for their own situation.

Good luck with the development, and lets remember to play nice

PS - reputation isnt always enough - if a talented engineer from a third world village can come up with a few pieces of iron and a couple of rubber bands held together by bolts, he would get a sale if it worked for me!

[Dico]

there are others on here who either have more money than sence and will buy it because 'it is there', not because they *need* it

Hello


Lets get the list up and running again for him......:

1. Xiphias
2. thewheelrestorer
3. Dico
4. Richard K
5.

[DeeAitch]

Just for the record I do think the geometry will change if you lower the suspension - at least the static camber settings will, probably toe as well. Easily reset tho' (although one of my rears is already on the limit)
If you want to that is.

If this is a purely 'interested' list, then yes, I am. At the very least it is educational
But if it comes in at around 1k then Idoubt I will go beyond the interested phase, particullarly the way Automotive business is going these days Bludy sub prime crap.

1. Xiphias
2. thewheelrestorer
3. Dico
4. Richard K
5. DeeAitch

[RayD]

...I do think the geometry will change if you lower the suspension

I’m sure you're right Dave, but earlier, if I read it properly, I think people were referring to fitting a like for like, but improved damper rather than lowering the car, which is where the confusion may have come from.

Ray


1. Xiphias
2. thewheelrestorer
3. Dico
4. Richard K
5. DeeAitch

[ektrolleyboy]

Count me in for interest... Depending on the price of course! It's not that I have a problem spending big bucks on my car or suspension, but spending 2500 GBP on an Elans suspension, to me would be daft!

I'm shocked at what I've read through this thread and the ignorance of some people AGAIN! Man... I've been the custodian of many cars that most of you pin to your bedroom walls and I know KW do a lot of after-market work for Porsche through companies like FVD. I'm in no doubt you can improve what we've already got (which I think is a pretty bad handling car by comparison to many modern cars-My Cooper S would run rings around my Elan and that's just a MINI!, but it 20 years newer and there-in lies the point I believe) !
But each to their own...

So anyway...

Where's the detailing and price?
If the price is silly, then the whole thread is obsolete really isn't it!

P.S- I think people should also take a look at GAZ suspension as they do a rebuild service that would adapt upon what you already have as standard equipment. Basically offering a modern upgrade to your old car... It's a route I'll be going down at some point depending on the above, but I think GAZ are more than likely going to offer a better more cost effective solution than KW... For most people here.