feeler : custom KW Suspension for our Lotus Elan << re

[L.G.]

P.S- I think people should also take a look at GAZ suspension as they do a rebuild service that would adapt upon what you already have as standard equipment. Basically offering a modern upgrade to your old car... It's a route I'll be going down at some point depending on the above, but I think GAZ are more than likely going to offer a better more cost effective solution than KW... For most people here.

Sorry if I am stating the obvious but isn't GAZ already selling dampers for Elan through SJ'S? I am sure some had bought GAZ but don't remember their opinions.

L.G.

[ektrolleyboy]

I'm not sure what the ins and outs are... But. On the GAZ web-site it states that they can reconfigure your classic sportscar by sending them what you already have. I'm guessing this is a slightly different service to just changing the shocks?

[Monty]

IIRC SJ`s did sell the Gaz dampers but they got a few complaints over them failing hence why they now sell Protech.

[L.G.]

I've read your post once again, I've missed what you meant sorry for the confusion.

L.G.

[Sy V]

SJ100D0001 still shows a GAZ product. This is what I've had fitted all round for 4/5 years with the uprated springs.

[ektrolleyboy]

So what's your opinion Sy?

I was actually going to contact you to ask. You've read my mind...
Your car looks superb! How much is it dropped by and who did the work?

I find the ELAN rolls quite badly and I slip all over the place on my leather S2 seats. I find I'm using the steering wheel as a support handle as well as using it to control the car. And it dives like mad under breaking and squats like mad under acceleration. General consensus from reading this thread is that people like that and don't want to lose it. I want well rid of it! Has your kit addressed some of these isssues?

[Elanlover]

If I may...........

I find the ELAN rolls quite badly and I slip all over the place on my leather S2 seats. I find I'm using the steering wheel as a support handle as well as using it to control the car.

The Elan is a VERY stiff car for a convertible. Even by today's standards. If you're excessive getting roll in corners I'd have it checked out. You could have bad shocks, bad springs, geometry misalignment or any combination thereof.

And it dives like mad under breaking and squats like mad under acceleration.

This screams bad springs or shocks. Sure, some diving under hard braking is to be expected. But under somewhat "normal" conditions this shouldn't be the case.

General consensus from reading this thread is that people like that and don't want to lose it. I want well rid of it! Has your kit addressed some of these isssues?

Not sure where you read that from anywhere on this forum. I don't think anyone here has said they want their cars to dive and roll



Stiffer coils and shocks don't necessarily equate to better handling. A properly designed system does. You NEED some compliancy in the coils and shocks to ensure the contact patch stays stuck to the road. A little play helps handling. If you want to take a "stiff" suspension to the extreme imagine the car with no coils or shocks at all. No play whatsoever. That'd be pretty stiff for sure. Now imagine what would happen during cornering. You'd lose the contact patch very quickly compared to a car with a softer suspension (or in this imaginary example - a car with ANY suspenion ) that had some give when cornering.

I have the Protechs and uprated front coils from SJ. The ride is harder, the cornering slightly better but I suspect there's room for improvement on that as well. I'm not convinced just slapping in stiffer springs and shocks makes it better. It'll make it "different" to be sure. For example, i find the car now breaks loose faster. It holds longer in corners but there's no gradual loss of traction. It happens all at once. Is that better? Someone with more track experience than I can answer that.

[ektrolleyboy]

I was referring to the overall characteristics! Please let's not start any more bickering...

My car is not doing things it shouldn't. It's just doing things I don't like and modern cars wouldn't. A stiffer/lower set up would definately cure a lot of the roll in the ELAN. And improve cornering agility. But perhaps add understeer...
I think cars like the Renault Clio 182 Cup and Mini Cooper S Works are superb modern interpretaions of where our Elans should be. For me anyway. I want my Elan to match the pace of a 'Clio Cup' set-up.
(Que a load of bickering and nonsense about Renault and how Elans are LOTUS- Blah! Blah! Blah!)

Handling is a loose term.
For me handling is how quickly I can rail a left/right turn. Or how quickly I can nail a roundabout or sweeping curve.
I'm not bothered about comfort so much. I take that as it comes mostly.

[G UK]

With the comments you've made I also believe you have some issue with your suspension, the elan shouldn't pitch or roll as much as you suggest. I've had comments about my S2 from friends both inside and outside the car stating the exact opposite to what you have said regards roll and pitch, remember it may only be aging shocks and springs rather than something broken as such.

This also got me thinking however. Oddly sat next to older/higher mileage SE's my car appears to sit fractionally higher. Is this down to the different suspension or just age/mileage between the two cars?

[ektrolleyboy]

Sorry guys. I'm not having a go!
But my car is fine...

My recent cars have been a MINI Cooper S Cabriolet. Which is rock hard. And a BMW M3 Cabriolet which is diamond hard.
I've also had my hands on Porsches/Ferrari's/ Lambo's EVO 6, etc. In the past. Have driven new Elans and all sorts of exotica. I'm spoiled that's my problem!And am just used to cars that can really handle.
I'm sorry to offend but the ELAN does pitch and roll beyond a modern day performance car. With the experience I have I find the Elan can be improved to suit my taste more.
It's a personal taste and my personal opinion before everybody jumps on me as usual! If you like your Elan and think it's perfect, then I'm glad. But I think with modern equipment there's so much more than can be had from this car.

And get in your Elan, any Elan and I think you'll find it does transfer its weight to the front on braking in a noticeable manner and it does push back on acceleration. Not saying it's a bad thing in general. Just not to my exact taste. It's an Elan characteristic... And it does roll much more than a modern day "hot" car! And the seats are nowhere near supportive enough on roundabouts, especially if like me you've polished the hell out of them with leather cleaner.

[MattDon]

ive got to say the prospect of siffening up the elan but maintaining comfort has me very exited if that is the aim here, im looking to modify my elan into a gt tpye car (as far as is possible with the elan)

[G UK]

Dont get me (and I hope others) wrong, this thread now makes every comment seem an argument rather than a discussion. We are just offering opinion based on our experiences, were not saying you are wrong just that my opinion is different.

Comparing the elan to "Porsches/Ferrari's/ Lambo's EVO 6, etc." is unfair, except for the Evo these are cars designed with pure performance in mind and at a cost much much greater than the Elan (In the case of the Evo and M3 its more performance but at a price), I haven't driven any of these cars though so I only go on there reputation. The Elan is more of trying to get the blend between performance and useability which it does so well.

On the matter of the Mini, I find the Elan (S2, I've not had the pleasure of an unmodified SE) is similar, maybe slightly worse, in a roll and pitch sense rather than much worse as you suggest. In a 15-20 year old car I find this very impressive and even just renewing springs, shocks and bushes would much improve this. I also believe even with more roll an elan will still be "at least" a match for any modern hot hatch (handling only unless you have upgraded brakes and ESM chip)

In summary I think you are being a little hard on the Elan, it is always going to struggle to match a modern Evo, Scooby, M3 type car nevermind modern supercar, but it is a match for modern hot hatch (just much better looking ) surpassing many with the correct upgrades/modifications

[ektrolleyboy]

Again. I'm not bagging the Elan...
I just am used to so much better and was expecting a little more. I think it's capable of more!

I know what you mean about this thread. It's a sensitive one isn't it...

I does frustrate me though when people think the Elan is like a gift from the gods. But anyway...

Let's concentrate on finding a good suspension system for these cars.

[thewheelrestorer]

ektrolleyboy

"I'm not bagging the Elan...
I just am used to so much better and was expecting a little more. I think it's capable of more!

I know what you mean about this thread. It's a sensitive one isn't it...

I does frustrate me though when people think the Elan is like a gift from the gods. But anyway...

Let's concentrate on finding a good suspension system for these cars."

Ditto...well said,

[G UK]

Whilst typing the last post I had some more general thoughts as well which I'll share although I will apologise in advance as they are somewhat random.

I think (read hope) we can all agree the suspension set-up on the Elan was revolutionary when it was new and is still today very good, that being said improvements can be made in replacing shocks and springs etc. albeit not as big improvements as a system wide redesign would achieve. The KW units discussed seem to be a top line product and so I dont think there is much doubt they will achieve a noticeable improvement. The question I have had in my mind is how such a system would fit with a complete overhaul of the suspension which would give a large improvement.

One factor, a major factor for most, is of course cost. Whilst these shocks maybe among best available for any system we could devise or had devised for us they seem a bit expensive pushing any future overhaul costs out of reach of most. As an individual item I dont blame people for wanting them and if they wish an improvement in the short term and have the cash they should go for it. But an issue for some will be that this will doubtfully be part of any future overhaul giving greater benefits due to cost

Warning: This post is full of random thoughts cobbled together to be coherent, also I am currently imbiding alcoholic beverages hence the fact that I've actually bothered to type this much.

Edit: I like this forum as it warns me if people have posted whilst I have been composing a post, I wont revise though as I'll be at it forever.

[G UK]

Again. I'm not bagging the Elan...
I just am used to so much better and was expecting a little more. I think it's capable of more!

I know what you mean about this thread. It's a sensitive one isn't it...

I does frustrate me though when people think the Elan is like a gift from the gods. But anyway...

Let's concentrate on finding a good suspension system for these cars.

Bingo!!
- If your used to the best of the best today, the best of yesterday isn't going to be good enough.

- Agreed

- The Elan was a "gift of the gods" in its day, today its just "very good"

- Agreed, for some that'll be one off best components for the immedient gain with a possible "ultimate" performance, for others that'll be a "best system" designed with cost in mind.

[Dico]

Anyone up for a curry?

[XiPHiAS]

I find the ELAN rolls quite badly and I slip all over the place on my leather S2 seats. I find I'm using the steering wheel as a support handle as well as using it to control the car.

The Elan is a VERY stiff car for a convertible. Even by today's standards. If you're excessive getting roll in corners I'd have it checked out. You could have bad shocks, bad springs, geometry misalignment or any combination thereof.

"stiffness of a convertible" and "bodyroll" is a whole different thing!
- stiffness : the car is stiff, so it (chassis/body) does not deform/twist in extreme circumstances ...
- bodyroll : the front of the car is diving when you do hard braking, or the front goes up when accelerating hard ... or the car is rolling over to right if you go left...

thewheelrestorer helped me because I am from Belgium and my English is not so excellent... (so thank u)
It is very hard for me to give good reactions/responses because English is not my motherlanguage.

I decided this weekend to stop answering on all replys because a lot of members "not know what they say" or "just jump into the discussion without any experience in aftermarket suspension systems".

I go forward wih the project for myself...
One think says me, stop discussing, stop defending yourself and KW and just drop the benefit for all the LEC-members.
Maybe that is so much easyer for me to let them build my own unique one-off suspension system in case of doing calculatings, start, folow up and manage feelers... for just some extra sets. People with serious intrests and know where they talking about can contact me privately (fvcATtelenet.be) maybe we can work somthing out offside te forum.

[Elanlover]

Ok

bodyroll : the front of the car is diving when you do hard braking, or the front goes up when accelerating hard ... or the car is rolling over to right if you go left...

thewheelrestorer helped me because I am from Belgium and my English is not so excellent... (so thank u)

But, if thewheelrestorer gave you all that information I think he's not entirely correct. Body roll has nothing to do with diving and pitching up under braking/acceleration. That's going to be controlled by the shocks and coils primarily. You want to reduce roll? You need to look more at the anti-roll bar than the coils and shocks. That IS what its there for afterall. Back to my point about just sticking in stiffer shocks and springs not necessarily being the right solution. I believe Bob Brown is/was looking into a stiffer ARB as part of an overall solution. Again, I'll say (with my limited knowledge) that stiffer coils and shocks will be "different" but not necessarily better overall - especially if you're not scientific about how much stiffer they should be. For example, most drivers WANT to get the nose down fast when hard braking to increase the bite when entering a turn. The question is how much less dive do you want over stock?

From Wikipedia:

On wheeled or tracked vehicles, body roll is a reference to the load transfer of a vehicle towards the outside of a turn. When a vehicle is fitted with a suspension, it works to keep the wheels or tracks in contact with the road, providing grip for the driver of vehicle to control its direction. This suspension is compliant to some degree, allowing the vehicle body, which sits upon the suspension, to lean in the direction of the perceived centrifugal force acting upon the car. Anti-roll bars are a part of the suspension specifically designed to address body roll.

When a vehicle is fitted with a suspension there is compliance between the mass of the vehicle and the vehicle's contact with the ground. Body roll is the noticeable (either perceived or measureable) deflection produced when load transfer acts on the compliant elements of the suspension. Anti-roll bars directly impact body roll but their design intent is actually as a tool to adjust roll couple percentage or roll moment distribution.


Lastly, and this are just my thoughts, if you come to the forum asking for feedback then you need to be prepared to take the good with the bad and not get defensive. Answering someone's negative feedback with something akin to "I know what I'm talking about and you don't" (not you specifically XiPHiAS) doesn't exactly get people on your side. Especially when its clear that there ARE people here who DO know what they are talking about (that's not me though ).

I've said enough already. I think you should defintely go ahead with investigating a KW alternative. No one's said its a bad idea. I will still be interested in what you find out XiPHiAS and I hope you'll post it back here for people to discuss and comment on. Going for some curry now

[theelanman]

eko
have you had your suspension checked out???
I find that the handling of the elan is better than that of a BM (be it a 3 or mini).....
if youve never had anything new on your suspension then your shockers are about 20 years old....
I get very little roll and I find that I leave nearly everything behind once in the twistys
as for lowering the car....erm you'll need to take off you fromt lip before it gets ripped off....you may also need to mod your wheel arch liners...erm also check the arch clearance itself....
you will also need to be carefull of most of your underside....speed bumps spring to mind....
cheers