JPS M100

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Re: JPS M100

Postby saska » Wed 26.08.2009, 19:24

G UK wrote:Well, things have taken a turn for the worse today as they have now refused to do anything about it by blaming the car so I may be without a turbo for quite a while as this drags out.

They are now saying the thrust bearing has disintigrated and this could only be caused by not enough oil or overboost, whilst completly refusing to believe that it could be the bearing itself or even the fitting!! I have answered every question and checked and double checked everything that they have come up with regarding how the car could have caused it to fail but their only response is "well it has to be loss of oil pressure or overboost".

When I pushed them about it they got a bit sharp and pointed out my warrenty is void as they fitted the bigger compressor, when I then mentioned statutory rights they started once again saying the warrenty was void and how it is impossible to check the oil pressure to the turbo without a "special adaptor" that fits the oil feed pipe! How the hell is that the only way when the oil feed comes directly from the main oil gallery where the pressure is measured and then passes through a standard pipe with no blockages!?!

Oh and to add insult to injury I was informed that if it had been repairable they would have just repaired it with a note to check the oil feed but as it will need replacing they are not going to do anything :censored:

I am currently writing a letter of complaint to them about this now, if anybody wants to proof read it let me know.


Graham, I've read a few pages back just to confirm my memory and the guys who did the head gasket did indeed note that the turbo spindle had excessive play, which tallys with the 'whine' you'd noticed. In other words: the evidence of a fault adds up.
I'd be writing a letter to Turbo Developments and make it obvious that I was Cc: ing it to your local Trading Standards. Send both letters Recorded Delivery. RD is a legal instrument in the UK in that it must be returned after 7 days if not signed for or collected. Though Dapinky will doubtless be along with chapter & verse, essentially your rights within the UK are:
For goods, there is the Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended). For services, there is the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 (as amended). For both goods and services, there is the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008, which create a general duty on retailers not to trade unfairly. Basically the rule of 'fit for purpose' applies. This is a very variable yardstick. Suppose you buy a disposable lighter -- if it fails after 3 weeks then it may well meet: 'fit for purpose'. Now suppose you pay 10K for a car and the engine blows up after 15,000 miles. The car may be 3 years old and out of warranty but (assuming you can prove it has been serviced) was not 'fit for purpose'. A turbo ought to do thousands of miles.
A turbo which fails within some small number of miles was not 'fit for purpose' T'Bird or not. Document what you have from the guys that did the head gasket and whatever else you've got in terms of mileages and dates. Your next step should be to write Trading Standards a letter & Cc: TD -- bet that will soften their cough.

I'm aware you've had problems with Blackie recently, but take heart Graham, Roz said to me on the Serpentine Run when we were following you; 'That is one well cool car'.
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Re: JPS M100

Postby muley » Wed 26.08.2009, 19:32

Tried TD a few times today, always engaged, left messages, they've not returned my calls :(
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Re: JPS M100

Postby dapinky » Wed 26.08.2009, 21:07

Graham,

This is covered under the Sale of Good Act 1979 (as amended because of them there Eurocrats in 2002).

The points in question are 'Durability' and 'Reasonable quality' - both of which are subjective, and what an average bloke in the street would accept, using standard English language definitions.....

...it isn't really my field of expertise (I try to avoid civil law - the criminal stuff is bad enough!), but the crux of the matter is that you only have to show 'on the balance of probabilities' and not 'beyond all reasonable doubt' to win a case. ie 51% chance is a winner, as opposed to 67% - and the system falls behind the consumer, leaving the burden of proof on the supplier.

As a consumer, it's more in your favour than theirs - you only have to claim that it was a crap job, they have to prove it wasn't!

You can get good advice from any Trading Standards office (local council), or a solicitor - or a well-worded letter quoting relevant bits from the legislation ( click here ) asking for an amicable resolution may get it sorted out quickly.

As I say, not really my field of expertise, but If you want me to cast an eye over any letter you wish to consider sending, then just drop me an e-mail.
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Re: JPS M100

Postby bobbrown » Wed 26.08.2009, 23:36

If you paid for the Turbo by credit card then you may have another option, I think it is covered by Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act.

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Re: JPS M100

Postby DaveB » Thu 27.08.2009, 13:25

Muley...

...I know all this 'sale of goods act stuff' sound like a pain in the a**e, but it is worth doing.

I Recently had a similar experience with a company about a radio I purchased. I had all sorts of problems and tried to send it back as unfit for purpose. Initially they refused point blank, but after a couple of letters, they relented and I got my money back. If you did pay by credit card, give the credit company a ring, In my experience (Barclaycard) they are more than helpful...

...Pinky's offer to 'proof read' sounds a winner too!
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Re: JPS M100

Postby G UK » Thu 27.08.2009, 18:07

I posted the letter off recorded delivery on the way home from work after taking some advice from my unions legal advice team but prior to seeing Pinkys offer. They recommended to reference and quote "The Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 (as amended)" as the complaint is regards the goods provided as part of a service (as in rebuilding the turbo). That law however is pretty much the same as for the "Sale of Goods Act 1979" but is in relation to a provided service and the goods provided in line with that service.

Unfortunately I paid by debit rather than credit card which is not helping matters.

Anyway I'll have to see what happens when they get the letter!!
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Re: JPS M100

Postby Paul.P » Thu 27.08.2009, 18:27

Dirty wrotten bar stewards !, hope you sort them G.
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Re: JPS M100

Postby GeoffSmith » Thu 27.08.2009, 20:19

G UK wrote:Unfortunately I paid by debit rather than credit card which is not helping matters.

It would be worth checking with your bank Graham: "If you paid by debit card you are not covered by section 75 and there is no legal obligation on the card provider to reimburse you. You may though be able to ask for money back under the 'chargeback' procedure operated by members of the Visa and Mastercard schemes - speak to your bank to see if this is possible."

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Re: JPS M100

Postby G UK » Thu 27.08.2009, 20:54

Thanks Geoff that may be useful later as I know my bank is part of a Mastercard scheme regards online security so may very well cover this as well. I'll see what a letter or two does first however.
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Re: JPS M100

Postby rip » Thu 27.08.2009, 21:28

Their attitude sucks. I know from what you told me at the weekend that you have ruled out any negligence on your part.

I can't see their issue with you having a bigger compressor. If they advised against it at the time then fair play, but this was not the case. If they issued their warranty after they fitted this then surely the warranty must be for the item as supplied?

Also may be worth mentioning that you will be morally compelled to post a truthful description of how unhelpful they have been...& how close-knit the Lotus community is & how many of us have turbos. This would be potentially damaging to them and as long as you remain factual, I can't see what they could do about it.
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Re: JPS M100

Postby G UK » Tue 15.09.2009, 19:47

Oh well, its now been over a fourtnight since they recieved my complaint letter and the deadline for there response has past. Now it looks like I have to take them to small claims court to get a response!! :(

In the meantime I'm going to have to find a replacement turbo but dont have a clue where to start. Any ideas anybody?
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Re: JPS M100

Postby Monty » Tue 15.09.2009, 23:52

G,

Thats bad news, what a bunch off :censored: lucky it wasn`t me as they`d have no workshop to bloody work in.

Put a request in the wanted section, i had one mate i`d give you it but i damaged my spare :roll:
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Re: JPS M100

Postby Enright » Wed 16.09.2009, 00:37

G UK wrote:In the meantime I'm going to have to find a replacement turbo but dont have a clue where to start. Any ideas anybody?

Yes.
Give me a call. :wink:
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Re: JPS M100

Postby G UK » Wed 16.09.2009, 01:57

Enright wrote:
G UK wrote:In the meantime I'm going to have to find a replacement turbo but dont have a clue where to start. Any ideas anybody?

Yes.
Give me a call. :wink:


I would phone you now but I dont think you would appreciate a call in the wee hours!! :-D I'll give you a call tomorrow.

Thats bad news, what a bunch off :censored: lucky it wasn`t me as they`d have no workshop to bloody work in.


I've felt the same over the last couple of weeks unfortuately they are a bit out of range for anything personal!! :-D

I will however happily warn anybody off from using Turbo Developments & Engineering in Brentford and would happily agree that this be passed on to anybody and everybody possible. If they had even so much as responded to my letter I may have felt different but as it stands they have had two weeks and have not contacted me in any way. I can only conclude either they dont care or they are hoping to get away with it!!
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Re: JPS M100

Postby G UK » Sun 20.09.2009, 19:23

Hmm,
Hows £495+VAT sound for a reconditioned Turbo sound? Doesn't sound to bad to me from SJ's and I can get all the necessary bits and bobs at the same time. Edit: Maybe not so good as thats for an exchange on the old unit.

Anyway, I post saying I've had no response and low and behold a letter pops through the door. Basically saying the turbo is the same condition as the original:

- Compressor Wheel Severe Impact Damage
- Severe Thrust Bearing Damage
- Thrust Collars Severe Rubbing
- Foreign Particles Present
- Turbine Shaft & Wheel Damage

Bear in mind when the original went I started burning oil and had a bit of blue smoke, when this one went it was sudden loss of power and a huge cloud of white smoke.

They then go on to say that "... the turbocharger has failed prematurely due to one or more of the following;-

- Insufficient oil pressure to turbo
- Internal engine foreign particle contamination
- External engine foreign particle contamination
- Contaminated engine oil
- Fuel system/injection feed system defective or incorrectly adjusted
- Boost pressure control valve does not oil
- Pipe to boost pressure control valve defective
- Severe overboost "

Which is basically a list of things that could lead to a turbo failure but ignoring things like material defects and poor workmanship and as far as I can tell is not specific to my turbo failure.
Last edited by G UK on Mon 21.09.2009, 17:03, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: JPS M100

Postby rip » Sun 20.09.2009, 22:28

Same condition as the original?
Symptoms sound quite different to me..

Best file that for the small claims case then...

Meanwhile you've still got a dead Elan. :cry: :censored:
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Re: JPS M100

Postby G UK » Tue 06.10.2009, 19:31

I've now got my old turbo back whilst the new center cartridge is going through customs. The turbine housing of the old turbo is fine and therefore can be bolted straight onto the new center section, the same cant be said for the turbine itself. The bearings are missing but the rest looks OK with a quick look over so I may be able to rebuild it as a spare center section.

The compressor wheel and housing shows some very light rubbing as if it just caught on the high spots of the housing. After inspection the housing is fine with no damage whilst the wheel actually looks and is dimensionally fine, it looks like the blades had a very fine shave however there are no chips, bending or other damage just a bit shiny on the edges with the odd burr. One interestring thing from the inspection is that the wheel is not a t-bird but appears to be something else as can be seen from these measurements, taken on inspection at work.

Inducer: 39mm +/-0,1
Exducer: 56mm +/-0,1

The closest I can find is the wheel from a VF10 which was fitted to the Subaru Legacy, As far as I am aware the t-bird (VJ-16? VJ-17?) only has an Exducer of 52,5mm. Information on all this is bloody hard to find however so if anybody knows different if they can let me know!!! :shock:

In other news I've now got Bob's Rear Brakes now sat here waiting to be fitted as well, not to mention the roll hoops still waiting.
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Re: JPS M100

Postby G UK » Sun 25.10.2009, 18:28

Just a quick note as I've barely been on the forum lately. Everything is now fitted up and Blackie is back on the road, I had a minor worry when I took her a quick spin and she started steaming but quikly found the culprit to be a coolant hose not quite fully tightenedy. She seems to be running well despite the three months off the road with only a slightly lumpy idle to show for it. I've now got to spend a few days and a couple of hundered miles running everything back in.

Annoyingly the Rover decided to blow up last weekend with a combined water pump leak and jammed started motor leaving me stranded. Who else manages to own two cars and then still break them both and have to cadge lifts to work :roll:
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Re: JPS M100

Postby Monty » Sun 25.10.2009, 20:51

G, you haven`t had much with cars lately lol

Good to hear that Blacky is back on the road :wink:
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Re: JPS M100

Postby Paul.P » Sun 25.10.2009, 22:16

Yea, thats great news G, hope it keeps that way !
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