Bilstein/Eibach suspension Version 2

[Denny]

My suspension is now 19 years old and never been updated from, what I can see, and I am very tempted to get this upgrade as it seems to be a fantastic deal, but I am not sure I will see the benefit as I only want them for road use. I have looked at SJs website and you can get a full set of springs (front 20% uprated) and fully adjustable aluminium dampers for about £530 delivered. I know they wont be the same quality as the proposed set up, but they would probably last me for a lot of years. My question is; has anyone fitted the SJ set up and if so, are they any good? I assume they are an improvement from the OE set up.

[Elanlover]

My suspension is now 19 years old and never been updated from, what I can see, and I am very tempted to get this upgrade as it seems to be a fantastic deal, but I am not sure I will see the benefit as I only want them for road use. I have looked at SJs website and you can get a full set of springs (front 20% uprated) and fully adjustable aluminium dampers for about £530 delivered. I know they wont be the same quality as the proposed set up, but they would probably last me for a lot of years. My question is; has anyone fitted the SJ set up and if so, are they any good? I assume they are an improvement from the OE set up.

Well, once I get my new suspension system from Bob installed I can sell you mine with new springs and shocks (20% uprated front and new rears with Protech shocks) for half that and they only have 4,000KM on them.

I do have that system installed and it is better than stock. A bit harder ride as one might expect but I don't mind them. I'm looking to better even that setup though which is why I'll go with this new system Bob is working on.

[RayD]

Bob,

Are the springs that Eibach specified 20% stiffer than the original SE springs?

Ray

[bobbrown]

Bob,

Are the springs that Eibach specified 20% stiffer than the original SE springs?

Ray

I do not know at this point in time what the final spring rates will be and it would be silly to speculate, they will be different depending on the application like Monty's will need to be stronger. For a road car they could be more or they could be the same only testing on the car will allow the rates to be finalised at least for a road car along with the damper settings. To me 20% is just a shot in the dark and may be influenced by the fact that SJ sell springs 20% up rated which are probably FED spec but may not. A full race spec may have springs that are 100/150% up on standard but with different damper settings as they have a much stronger spring to control.

Bob

[Nige]

If I recall correctly the 20% stiffer springs that SJ's sell are based on some work Philbo had done when he was developing his car some considerable length of time ago. Again if I remember correctly he wanted to reduce the amount of dive under heavy braking when on track as he had improved his front braking by being the first person I know of to fit Hi Spec calipers on the front (The AP set up was around before that though). At the time SJ's sold Gaz adjustable dampers. I believe they ended up at 20% stiffer (claimed) through a degree of trial and error. I don't think, but cannot be certain that the stiffer springs SJ's sell are simply federal springs re labelled.

[saska]

I don't think, but cannot be certain that the stiffer springs SJ's sell are simply federal springs re labelled.

I'd agree. The Fed Elan may be heavier in the nose than a ROW SE but it isn't 20% heavier and, generally speaking, Federal cars have softer springing due to the difference in road types.

Whilst I appreciate BobB's efforts (particularly in the brakes dept) 2 salient facts remain:
1. Nobody really knows, or can know, what the Nitron/Eibach system will handle/feel like compared to the OEM setup.
2. Everything except the rear dampers is still available OEM AFAIKT for much less money.
So while I'm probably headed for aggro on this one -- the S2 setup is probably the more refined of all the OEM versions and the S2 dampers are now recommended for the SE (see page 229 of the parts manual).
I've an SE and S2 and the S2 is definitely sharper on turn in and more compliant than the SE -- it is just more chuckable. Even though the SE had all new bushes (from the rafts outward) last year while the S2 has 63K on the original bushes.
All springs/dampers (except the rear dampers) can be obtained OEM from say SJs for £404 incl VAT and add either Gaz, Protech or AVOs (OEM replacement) for the rear dampers which would be £253 incl VAT for the AVO PH748 rears. Total £657.
While I can see the track day people may well want stiffer springs, less roll and more damping, I don't think most of the road users/daily drivers will want to vary an awful lot from the already very good OEM setup.
So where does that leave everyone? I think an awful lot of people will wait and see what others think of the Nitron/Eibach setup before deciding. It might be good if a few reliable people got to drive the guinea pig car with the N/E conversion(s) at various settings and reported back. I also think it would be good if the guinea pig car was in as good as possible condition so valid comparisons with OEM could be made. You are going to be altering the major components in one of the best handling FWD road cars on the planet so I can well understand the caution ;) 2p

[Elanlover]

Pretty sure they're not Fed spec springs since I have them on my car now and the car sits lower and is a bit firmer than what was on the car previously (Fed stock springs). Firmer as in the springs, not the shocks.

[RayD]

I agree with you Tony, (Saska) apart from the “ headed for aggro “ bit. There’s no reason for anyone to take it the wrong way.

I understood from this earlier posting ...

“Eibach have specified a spring setup they feel should give an improvement for both the road car and on the track.”

the springs were already decided upon.

Ray

[Nige]

It's important that we discuss this in an open and friendly way. I am hugely grateful for the efforts that Bob is making on behalf of all of us as without an individual who is prepared to take this on it simply will not happen. I am unclear on what development has gone into Gaz, AVO or Pro-Tech dampers (excluding the physical fit) in order to ensure the damping is appropriate to the springs on the car, it seem sto me that the end user is expected to adjust the damping to what they think is right. I do not know if the adjustable dampers available at the moment are sufficiently adjustable to accomodate different springs, however, I do not believe that SJ's would sell springs and dampers that were not suited to each other. I agree with Saska (although I am comparing an S2 and a NA). The S2 is much tauter (accepting it has half the mileage of the NA) if the springs are the same on the SE and S2 then the differeence must be down to the damping.

[bobbrown]

The original springs on the car are not a standard size and must have been specified and made up for Lotus originally; the "20%" stiffer ones again must have been made if they follow the same ID as the originals. If the springs were made up especially then due to there some what unique size then to get them made with different rates to test would prove very costly and I doube that was ever done, in all probability it was stick thumb in the air and say 20% increase will do, but I could be wrong and they did test different spring rates. I did look at getting springs made by Eibach for the Elan to fit the standard spring seats but the cost was prohibative at £250.00 each spring!
Now some people will say a spring is a spring and if the dimension are the same then the only thing that changes is the spring rate, but that is far from reality.
In the real world you pay for what you get and in the case of springs one major concern is sag or set over time, a low cost spring is made of lower cost material and is thus easier to form but it will sag considerably more over time. If people are happy replacing like for like then that is fine, replacing a twin tube damper with a twin tube damper single adjustable or double adjustable or not, if that’s what you want then again fine BUT this is not like for like; the dampers are mono tube and adjustable in a limited range to "fine tune" the damper to the particular requirements of the owner/driver while the main damper setting are controlled by shims with in the damper piston. I can not think of serious person in motor sport who if they had the choice would use a twin tube damper over a mono tube damper and it is probably only those that are restricted by the class regulations that do. You only have to look at the likes of Aston Martin, Jaguar and even Lotus as they specify Eibach springs now I wonder why?
I suppose it could be likened to low cost tyres to top brands you pay for what you get and I do not mean in terms of tyre wear, wear is not a concern to me on the Elan as it is not like it is doing 12k+ a year so if the tyres wear out in 10k at least I do not have to worry about them degrading over time levels of grip in dry, damp and wet conditions are my main concerns, OK I do want them to last a reasonable length of time but not to the same extent as the daily run about.
In the same way I would not spend this sort of money on the daily drive, but I for one am happy to spend it on the Elan.

Its all really down to horses for courses and what the indivdual wants it seems that some people are happy with the stock setup be it the engine. brakes etc others are not and it is then down to how much you are willing to spend. If you want a low cost option far be it from me to stop any one.

[RayD]

.

I’m not sure what you mean by “standard size”, but if they are otherwise ordinary, and any benefit can be gained from it ... Turton's in Sheffield who also say they make springs for Lotus can make a batch of them again for about £20 each.

They have about 150 Lotus part numbers and specifications.

I’ve given them the numbers from the parts list but these will need double checking as they are not easy to see on my copy. If two or three people could post their interpretation it would be helpful. SE front, N/A front, USA front, SE rear, N/A rear, USA rear.

Next week the person I spoke to will see if the numbers are on their list. It will cut out the need for guessing what they were like when new.

Special springs can be ordered to any degree above or below standard but the price may go up if there were only a small number at a particular spec.

Ray

[inkitin]

Post removed by author.

Sorry Bob you're right, I was wrong.

[bobbrown]

Oh I see a hi jack

If you want to run a group buy for springs start your own thread

Bob

[theelanman]

Oh I see a hi jack

If you want to run a group buy for springs start your own thread

Bob

[RayD]

.
You may have miss-read my post Bob,

I did look at getting springs made by Eibach for the Elan to fit the standard spring seats but the cost was prohibitive at £250.00 each spring!

... if they are otherwise ordinary and any benefit can be gained from it ... Turton’s in Sheffield ... can make a batch of them ... for about £20 each.

I thought it might be helpful on this thread

Ray

[bobbrown]

Ray

I can get cheap springs BUT the reasons for selecting Eibach should be obvious, they are made of better materials, are lighter, are cold formed, pre set, etc etc.
Also if you were to get springs made you would need to know exactly what rates were required before you had them made and if you get it wrong and the chances of getting it exactly right first time are remote then you have to get some more, wasted time and additional costs plus the fact if you want to increase the spring rates from a road car to a track car more trial and error so to me it is simply not economical.
Using a standard race spring then they are already available in lots of different lengths, rates and ID's but not 85mm which is the ID of the stock spring.


Bob

[dapinky]

Gentlemen,

Please lets keep an eye on the goal here.

I thought that this was a discussion thread, now that there is a seperate group buy thread in existance.

I don't feel that it is really up to me to get too involved, as I am not part of the group who is buying (for a variety of reasons which you may or may not be party to).

The actual make of components has been varied since time immemorial, and Bob has now sourced a top-end set of components which will do the job better than many will ever need.

That said, as a DISCUSSION thread, perhaps alternatives may be explored for those of us without such deep wallets, and slightly lower end goals. (Maybe on a different thread????).

No-one is saying that Eibach are not good - maybe even the best - but they ain't the only people to make springs.

I have used a specific company in Sheffield for many years - they can make exactly what I want, in under 3 weeks, for a huge lot less than custom Eibachs! Furthermore, they are as good as anything from Eibach, and can even do them in titanium if you want. Before anyone states that they cant possibly be as good as 'Brand X' at that price, then I suggest you have at look at what they have done for other people. I don't believe that this is the place to extol their virtues at this time, as I am not in a position (of desire) to be bothered with sorting out a buy with them - suffice to say, if i had wanted a 'good' set-up, I'd have gone to them myself, and not just sat on my ar$e waiting to critise someone who HAS bothered to do something.

As for the comments on needing to know EXACTLY what rates, sizes and free-lengths are required - I agree that such things are useful IF YOU ARE REPLICATING AN ORIGINAL - but if you are looking for a %age improvement, then a set of new-old-stock originals (or even, old originals) are good enough - as the calculations are straightforward enough.

Just remember - virtually anything can be made (or made better) given the time and money - and sizing is NOT a problem for many spring manufacturers - after all, its basically just a steel bar wrapped round a former - it is the length of the bar and the thickness of the bar which determine rates (and it is possible to have variable rate stuff made up easily if you want them).

So that's my half-pennyworth, for what it's worth

[Nohair]

re Donar car... didnt Sinclaires send their car up to the factory as the doar car for the A pillar seals about a 2yrs ago. Last time i spoke to wayne he hadnt had his car back... but that was a while back now.
NH

[RayD]

The rear of the car has two spring rates a slightly lower one until the helper spring is fully compressed and it gets a little complicated as the formula for two springs is s1*s2/s1+s2 when the two springs are working together but once the helper has gone coil bound it is just the main spring. So say a 150 lb/in and a 200 lb/in spring gives about the equivalent of a 85 lb/in spring until the transition point is reach when it returns to 200.

Does this mean a 200lb/in spring needs 200lb to compress it 1 inch, and a 150lb/in spring needs 150lb to compress it 1 inch but when they are placed end to end they only need 85lbs to compress them 1"?

Ray

[bobbrown]

Does this mean a 200lb/in spring needs 200lb to compress it 1 inch, and a 150lb/in spring needs 150lb to compress it 1 inch but when they are placed end to end they only need 85lbs to compress them 1"?
Ray

That may seem strange but it is correct