Head gasket problems!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bobbrown]

As asbestos is now a banned substance I'm not sure what the composite head gaskets are made of but one of the ingredients is graphite bonded with a resin with a metal core as shown below.

head gasket.jpg

As for a solid metal gasket there is only really one choice and that is copper but although it seals the combustion space well there are issues with it sealing the likes of oil and water ways and often need a gasket sealant around these areas.

Bob

Bob

[racerstev]

Be careful with copper. To make it work well it needs a O Ring around the bore, a receiver for the O Ring in the head will make it a very very strong seal.
With a normal O ring you will get minor seapage at the parting line for the ring, it's best to use a 1 peice O Ring. Also be sure to get dead soft
copper, it needs to be able to conform to work.

They also seap oil and water.

If the Cometic gasket dosn't happen I think O Ringing the block and a stock gasket is the way to go. The O Ring gives the fire ring extra support so
it won't blow out under high cly pressures. This is reliable to a point but not near as reliable as a multilayer steel.

[bobbrown]

Be careful with copper. To make it work well it needs a O Ring around the bore, a receiver for the O Ring in the head will make it a very very strong seal.

There is a UK company that makes copper gaskets that do not need the block and/or the head machined to accept a wire insert see ferriday as they have their own sealing rings but again head/block finish has to be correct with any of the MLS or copper options.

[CRAMBURY RS]

Be careful with copper. To make it work well it needs a O Ring around the bore, a receiver for the O Ring in the head will make it a very very strong seal.

There is a UK company that makes copper gaskets that do not need the block and/or the head machined to accept a wire insert see ferriday as they have their own sealing rings but again head/block finish has to be correct with any of the MLS or copper options.

wow, those guys make some sexy gaskets! but considering the USD is only .6 to the Euro, i'll wait on Cometic

getting something out of the US tends to be more cost effective and shipping to the UK isn't that expensive. i used to ship 4 pound turbo adapter plates for $27 USD in a priority envelope and items would arrive within 7-10 business days.

[racerstev]

Wow, they ARE nice gaskets, things have come a long way since I tryed this. They seem to cover
all the problem area's I had, a real fire ring rather then a O Ring and viton seals for the oil
galley. I guess the newer sealants cover any problems with coolant seep.

A little pricey to start at $240 but a good plan B for sure!

I've seen the MLS gaskets hold over 1400hp on a 4 clyinder Chysler engine with no failures.
My own setup held 600 WHP agein with no issues on the same engine. This is why I'd rather
go with them if possable.


Steve Lockett

[CRAMBURY RS]

Wow, they ARE nice gaskets, things have come a long way since I tryed this. They seem to cover
all the problem area's I had, a real fire ring rather then a O Ring and viton seals for the oil
galley. I guess the newer sealants cover any problems with coolant seep.

A little pricey to start at $240 but a good plan B for sure!

I've seen the MLS gaskets hold over 1400hp on a 4 clyinder Chysler engine with no failures.
My own setup held 600 WHP agein with no issues on the same engine. This is why I'd rather
go with them if possable.


Steve Lockett

well you may want to call them, because i got a response stating there would be a $3400 USD engineering fee associated with our gasket. hate to be the one to bring the bad news, but that $240 is looking pretty tempting right now.

[bobbrown]

To me it's all a numbers game, if you amortise the cost and the numbers are small then the cost is high but as the numbers rise then the cost comes down
If you had 20 people who were willing to but a gasket from Cometic and had to pay the engineering costs then it would cost them $235.00 for a gasket, if the numbers were 50 then this drops to $139.00.
My biggest problem with these types of jobs is that if some comes along after the event and wants a gasket then they have none of the intial costs to worry about and they pay the list price for which I was quoted $94.46 as apposed to the $75.00 after the engineering cost were paid.
I did ask the question about rights to the gasket but got this as a reply "We do not do any exclusives or rights to the gasket, however, we can refer people to you if they inquire"

As a point of interest I do not know what sort of discount one would get from the likes of Ferriday if say 20 gaskets were ordered at the same time but it is easier to make 20 than one so the costs come down.

Bob

[racerstev]

E Mail sent to Ferriday, lets see what happens. BTW, how thick is a stock gasket? Still waiting on mine to come in..

Steve

[Specky]

May I throw my two pence in as well...

The OEM gaskets still appear to be available to Lotus (they did source 20 odd the other day). Has anyone approached them with a view to a bulk order, a quick chat with the head honch in the aftersales Department may throw up another avenue to research.

I'd happily pay 50 dollars for an OEM item, chances are it would last another 20 years.

Just throwing that out there as a possible option.

TTFN

[racerstev]

Has it been determaned that the OE Isuzu gasket holds up better then the aftermarket ones out there? If so
this might be an option for some of us.

I would like to find a better gasket that can hold up to a bit more abuse then the stocker can.

Steve

[Specky]

There's only a few after Market head gaskets I know about and all have failed, but as to why, who knows.

The most expensive gasket I can recall off the top of my head was "Costa's Shark" , but I can't recall if that failed. I know he did have engine issues.

Intresting project, I'll watch with intrest.

Keep up the good work.

TTFN

[ashm]

I know he did have engine issues.

Not really surprising, considering how hard he was pushing it!
Adam

[Nickydee]

There's only a few after Market head gaskets I know about and all have failed, but as to why, who knows.

I am running a Felpro item from Rock Auto fitted approx 3000 miles ago. Not going to tempt fate but .......

[Specky]

Engine issues are inevitable and head gasket failures are all part of that, It's a natural weak point with in the engine. (It's not rocket science, nope it's thermodynamics )

If a new gasket were to be manufactured that out lasted other engine components we'd just harbour a grudge against those components. Soon we would improve all those aspects and before you know it were back where we started. It's a catch 22, but then again that's why I love Engineering.

Thinking about the minor differences between the OEM Turbo and N/A gaskets it proves there were a few issues that needed to be addressed.

So why make a new gasket !, Will it last 20 years!, more to the point would you still be hammering a 40 year old car! and other rhetorical questions...

I think eventually OEM will not always be an available option and this will be the only route to travel, so why not begin to venture that road to find the best product available.

If the question is why? The answer has gotta to be, Cos you can it's just human nature.

Must go and test the old head gasket... 400 miles..Broom Broom...and I might even see Del Boy and Rodney as I go "To Hull and back".

TTFN

[Monty]

IMHO i think the stock lotus/isuzu gasket is up to the job and IIRC there`s a few members which are now pusing towards the 300bhp and haven`t heard them complain Think the main problem is making sure the block has a good surface as the head is enough to have skimmed.

My last HG change has lasted over 3 years and IIRC about 8 trackdays and for now it`s holding out.

[CRAMBURY RS]

most members even at those numbers are running moderate boost on stock compression ratios. they're also running a stock ECM with a secondary fuel/air/timing management (LGM). i knew the moment i created the T25 adapters i was gonna break something :p i figured an axle before the HG.

anyway, COMETIC rep stated the engineering cost had to be UP FRONT. just FYI. i'll wait to hear from Steve and Ferriday.

[racerstev]

Ferriday wrote back and said they would be happy to make gaskets for us but added that they are
really made more for race cars then street cars. They really stressed how perfict the mating surfaces had to be
to get a good seal. I'm leaning now towards plan C, O ringing the head or the block and using a stock or aftermarket
gasket. For those just replacing a gasket with out a full overhaul O ringing the head seems like the way to go.

Like I noted earlier in this thread, stock gaskets with O Rings should hold around 400hp. It's important to
have a good tune on the engine though, detonation will blow any gasket..

[CRAMBURY RS]

Ferriday wrote back and said they would be happy to make gaskets for us but added that they are
really made more for race cars then street cars. They really stressed how perfict the mating surfaces had to be
to get a good seal. I'm leaning now towards plan C, O ringing the head or the block and using a stock or aftermarket
gasket. For those just replacing a gasket with out a full overhaul O ringing the head seems like the way to go.

Like I noted earlier in this thread, stock gaskets with O Rings should hold around 400hp. It's important to
have a good tune on the engine though, detonation will blow any gasket..

how perfect a match? we aren't running 1000hp methanol engines either. i think the gasket will forgive couple thousandths.

[racerstev]

I think they ment more the finish had to be right on, he went on to say it had to be better then one
for a MLS gasket. He also said a MLS will forgive small problems were his gasket won't.

IDK, my car is getting a full rebuild and my machine shop can give me any finish I need. I'm just
not sure how this will perform on a daily driver..

[knoxmotorsports]

We use Hylomar on MLS gaksets on both sides (lightly!). The surfaces of the block and head need to be flat flat. Finish is less important as long as they are flat and square.

I will see if i can get anything expedited as I am a Cometic dealer.