Urgent advise needed - smoke galore

[PECKHS]

yes, the pistons does not look too bad, and the bore seems to be fine too.
but the machine shop has measured the bore diameter and the piston and there is a difference.
in normal circumstances, the pistons should not be able to move laterally when it is in the bore, but mine does.. i think he mentioned a the bore diameter but i sort of lost it there

as for the replacement engine, you are quite right on the freight charges. he quoted me about $430 to ship to singapore, but not door to door only to port. only worry is the engine may have other problems too though he claims he provide warranty.

however grahamec seems to be a nice guy, so if i really has to go get myself a replacement engine he would be my first choice

[Specky]

Just looked at the pictures on my phone, two questions spring to mind...

Is the new piston oversized and what's the weight difference to the others.

I can't see the markings on the head, cos it's blurred on the Afore mentioned phone.

TTFN

[PECKHS]

been doing some thinking, pls correct me if i'm wrong.
the m100 is using an isuzu engine, and if i'm not wrong it is the 4XE1W. i googled the engine model and the results i got was quite fascinating. some of the isuzu sites also linked the engine to the lotus elan.
so, if that is right, the should mean that parts applicable to the 4XE1W engine will be suitable for our m100?

[PECKHS]

Just looked at the pictures on my phone, two questions spring to mind...

Is the new piston oversized and what's the weight difference to the others.

I can't see the markings on the head, cos it's blurred on the Afore mentioned phone.

TTFN

the piston is 80mm, same as the others

not sure abt the weight difference though.

the new piston has ÁX' engraved on the head, whereas the rest has a 'B' marking and the piston position(ie, 1,2, and 3)

[Specky]

Just remember you only have a few grams tolerence to play with..

TTFN

[racerstev]

A couple things I noticed, it looks like the engine sat for awhile, you can see rust in one of the bores.
Piston #1 had something either in the chamber or it detonated.

I know you said the pistons were all 80mm but what you need is the piston to wall clearance measurment.
This will tell you if you need to bore the block or not. Unless the walls are scored (yours don't seem to be)
it's not common to have to bore blocks these days. Same with sleeving the block, what's the point when oversize
pistons are avalable?

[bobbrown]

been doing some thinking, pls correct me if i'm wrong.
the m100 is using an isuzu engine, and if i'm not wrong it is the 4XE1W. i googled the engine model and the results i got was quite fascinating. some of the isuzu sites also linked the engine to the lotus elan.
so, if that is right, the should mean that parts applicable to the 4XE1W engine will be suitable for our m100?

You have to be careful as there are two versions a naturally aspirated and a turbo version and not all the parts are interchangeable this includes things like the block,pistons, cam shafts and head gaskets to name a few.
The codes Lotus used were 4XE1-M for the naturally aspirated and 4XE1-MT for the Turbo engine.

I still think the ebay engine was a reasonable option as it gives you so many more parts, TPS for example.

As far as piston 1 is concerned that is not detonation but a foreign object has been in there at some point and there should also be marks on the head it may be the reason why piston 4 was changed. Have a look at the head as if number 4 is badly marked then that is almost certainly what has happened.

The B on the piston indicates they are grade B and are 79.953 to 79.962 mm diameter the one marked AX is 79.945 to 79.959 in diameternot in it's self a major problem but I would check the weight as they should all be with in 10g of each other that complete assembley piston, rings and rods which isn't a lot.

[PECKHS]

as racestev has indicated, i also suspect the engine has sat around for some time thus the rust in the bore. however, the rust is on the surface and has not corroded into the metal

i've taken a bet and ordered the piston rings from rockautos, hopefully they will fit. if not, i would be considering to change to oversized piston and rings. as indicated, a replacement engine will be the last resort

tks evrybody for their advise

[PECKHS]

been doing some thinking, pls correct me if i'm wrong.
the m100 is using an isuzu engine, and if i'm not wrong it is the 4XE1W. i googled the engine model and the results i got was quite fascinating. some of the isuzu sites also linked the engine to the lotus elan.
so, if that is right, the should mean that parts applicable to the 4XE1W engine will be suitable for our m100?

You have to be careful as there are two versions a naturally aspirated and a turbo version and not all the parts are interchangeable this includes things like the block,pistons, cam shafts and head gaskets to name a few.
The codes Lotus used were 4XE1-M for the naturally aspirated and 4XE1-MT for the Turbo engine.

I still think the ebay engine was a reasonable option as it gives you so many more parts, TPS for example.

As far as piston 1 is concerned that is not detonation but a foreign object has been in there at some point and there should also be marks on the head it may be the reason why piston 4 was changed. Have a look at the head as if number 4 is badly marked then that is almost certainly what has happened.

The B on the piston indicates they are grade B and are 79.953 to 79.962 mm diameter the one marked AX is 79.945 to 79.959 in diameternot in it's self a major problem but I would check the weight as they should all be with in 10g of each other that complete assembley piston, rings and rods which isn't a lot.

@ bob - so if the m100 is using the 4XE1-MT, would the 4XE1W be suitable as a replacement? I always thought the difference in the engine model code was simply because they were used in different cars?

[racerstev]

as racestev has indicated, i also suspect the engine has sat around for some time thus the rust in the bore. however, the rust is on the surface and has not corroded into the metal

i've taken a bet and ordered the piston rings from rockautos, hopefully they will fit. if not, i would be considering to change to oversized piston and rings. as indicated, a replacement engine will be the last resort

tks evrybody for their advise

All you need to do is measure the rings and order a set up, I've done this with
Total Seal before.. BTW, stay away from the Total Seal 2nd ring, just go with
normal rings.

That's if the rings you ordered don't fit.

A engine from a 91 Isuzu Impulse RS will work for you as well, there were some
minor changes that shouldn't effect things much. The main one was solid lifter cams
rather then hydro's.

[GeoffSmith]

See here for Al's forensic comparison of the two engines.

[davidh]

Hi Peck

Do you know that there is an Elan se available to buy for scrap in Singapore with a sound engine.

Call me if you need the details, I know the owner well

David

[PECKHS]

Hi Peck

Do you know that there is an Elan se available to buy for scrap in Singapore with a sound engine.

Call me if you need the details, I know the owner well

David

Paul's? Last I heard he's not gonna scrap it anymore.

Tks anyway

[PECKHS]

Piston rings from rockautos will reach Wednesday. Guess we'll know how they fit by this week.

[bobbrown]

I still can not get my head around why you had such a large amount of smoke.
You say the machine shop said the piston to bore clearances were a little large, how much to large?
There appear from the pictures to be very litle bore wear so why the excessive clearance, the manual states the service limit is 80.2 mm.
The piston skirt at the top of the bore should still be with in the 0.058 to 0.078 limits as there should be no wear at the top of the bore above the limit of the top ring.
If pistons 1to 3 were original then the rings should have been OK, the only one I can see that may be suspect is number 4 but even here it would appear Ok.
Difficult to tell from pictures but some measurements from the machine shop would help.

The amount of work that is involved in sleeving the bores and the weaking of the block that mayo ccur does not lead me to believe this is the best option.
I would like to here of some one who has had this done to this engine not the early Elan for example as each engine model has its own issues.
What is the cost of sleeving the bore likley to be?
How does this compare to oversize pistons and a straight forward rebore?
Even if you went with the pistons from RobieTheRobot which are billet forged and include rings and pins, I do not see how sleeving the bores and using old pistons is economic.
Do not forget you have to assume that the old pistons are still serviceable and that is not just restricted to bore size but also includes ring grooves and piston pin and you have to take in to consideration the fact that the life of old pistons is boing to be reduced over new ones as they are already part worn.

Personally I would go the rebore and new piston route but would measure everything first, bores, pistons, ring grooves, pin and pin hole etc.

[Paul Coates]

Peck

Paul here,i am not scrapping my car, correct as I ve found the LTA have a scheme called the "Keeping scheme" !(10/10 for LTA s imagination here)which means I can keep the car until such time ( 3yrs to start) I decide when to export or otherwise,
DavidH can vouch for my car and its engine having helped so much (thks Daveh) .so why we talk about you buying my engine or the whole car

[saska]

Piston rings from rockautos will reach Wednesday. Guess we'll know how they fit by this week.

Peckhs, sorry for this but I think you need to slow down a bit and have a serious think. So far nothing I've seen explains why you're getting loads of smoke from the engine. Using a scattergun approach is probably not going to solve the fundamental problem and may end up costing you a load more money than it should:
1. You've got the engine in bits -- take control and tell whomever has it what you want them to do.
2. All the bores on the engine look pretty smooth and clean to me except #4. Racerstev has noted the minor rust in one but this doesn't seem much to me. No 4 bore has definite step marks in it -- I can see 4.
3. Measure everything you've got and post it up here:
Measure all the bores top, middle & bottom
Measure all the pistons top, middle and bottom
Measure all of the rings

Specks, BobB, etc. are not numpties and if they can't understand what you're doing then I've no hope but I do believe in collecting information, disseminating it and see what comes back.
Piston #4 looks the oddball and the step marks in the bore bear this out but nevertheless, I think you should measure everything and then decide what to do next. Think I'd prefer to go to oversize pistons & rebore if needed than go to a liner. If the liner has even the slightlest difference in coefficient of expansion than the block, it won't be long until it fails. This is one instance where the recommendations in the Service Notes most definitely apply.

I'd also agree with Specky that whatever you put back together: weigh all the pistons, put the lightest on 1 side and file the inside skirts of the rest until they all weigh the same. Do the same with the con rods, etc.
You can only really balance an engine when it is run by an external force but ensuring all the components have equal weight is the next best thing.

Good luck.

[PECKHS]

tks guys again for all the advise
initially when i took over the car, there was difficulty in getting the car to start. had to restart a few times, and when the engine gets warm enough, the idle stables and stopped stalling.
the next problem i had was the engine overheating and the white smoke.
the first thing we did was to check the overheating problem. we checked the water pump was working, so were the fans and the coolant was flowing. however, the engine was misfiring. the engine misfiring we discovered was due to the cam pulleys not being aligned. the TDC was totally out, and so was the timing. So we realigned the pulley and adjusted the base timing. And then we flushed the cooling system, and the overheating and misfiring was solved.
the car still does not starts well, so a paper clip test was done. code 13 was flashed and so the O2 sensor was changed. butr the problem persist. however, as soon as the engine was hot enough, it could be easily restsarted and idles well, except for the smoke. so i bought a set of new plugs, and new ignition coils, new HES. but these items were not fitted yet, as we still have the smoke problem.
our first guess was the valve seals, so we changed all 16 of them. problem still exist.
next on our mind are the head gasket and piston rings, and we simply had to look at the inside of the engine. so we decided to strip the engine and see what exactly may be the problem.
so as per the pics, we realised that something must have happened to piston 1and piston 4, but we probably will not know what exactly happened.
piston 1 - 3 seems to be the originals, and piston 4 is a later lotus part(?? cos of the ÁX' marking).
the thing is, up till now nobody has any idea what exactly happened to the engine...
so, few reasons why the smoke
1. valve stem seals - all changed
2. head gasket - looks fine
3. piston rings - reaching on wednesday
4. turbo, checked and is working fine, no traces of oil and no bad seals or blades

i am not able to think of any other reasons for the smoke...

piston mismatched? will it cost so much smoke?

and what caused it in the first place. tigerdog was suggesting the MAP sensor, aso i got a new one for good measure..

i doubt we will know what caused it in the first place, so most of the parts will be changed, just in case..

[PECKHS]

and i'll try to get the weight and diameters of the bore and piston when i next go to the machine shop...

[racerstev]

Like i posted earlier, check thos oil rings.. It's very easy to get them in wrong and they will cause alot
of smoke...