Problems with the FFS Hi Spec Rear Calipers ?

[RayD]

You’re missing my point Bob,

Operating something by remote control it would be useful to know how it performs manually … without the cable … prototype or not.

I'm thinking, if, for instance it becomes "solid" when operated by hand at the equivelent of two clicks ...

I don't think it will, I was asking if anyone had checked.

Ray

[bobbrown]

I'm not missing your point just do not understand why and what it is supposed to prove.

If Avonvilla can get 200 on an MOT and a pass after swapping the calipers over for the later design then they are working, if the lever on the caliper is extended then the travel on the hand brake lever is extended and the relative distance between clicks at the caliper is reduced. the only thing that changes is the mechanical advantage.

Or are you saying the new design does not work in some way, if you are implying the handbrake should be easier to apply, what do you think I'm trying to do.

Bob

[Dico]

I received and fitted my calipers today, 6 working days after posting them which seems about average and acceptable.
There is definately no improvement on the amount of effort required to apply the handbrake. At least on mine there isn't. I can just about manage one click using all my strength with both hands , just as before. One click did appear to hold on quite a steep hill mind.
The new half of the calipers are black, which for me isn't a problem, as it isn't noticeable. I returned mine minus all pins/split pins/bleed nipple plugs and it came back with new ones. My advice is to remove anything thats removeable. 1 it won't get lost and 2 you'll get some nice new spares.
I really hope Bob can produce a lever that will improve my handbrake.

[Steve A]

I can just about manage one click using all my strength with both hands

what about slackening off the cables a tad, it does sound like there's not enough adjustment

[Dico]

Plenty of slack Steve.

[ailwyn]

I've got a similar issue to Dico... handbrake no easier than before, 2 hands = 2-3 clicks.

I pressure bled the 4 corners, flushed all the old fluid, then took the car for a spin (only up the road and back).

Footbrake felt ok... so can only assume there is fluid in all the right places.

Mine is an S2, so should have the "easier" handbrake design.

I will re-bleed and double check the handbrake cables.

Pointless taking the car for MOT until the handbrake is more "normal", would be interested to know if anyone had issues then managed to resolve.

[Steve A]

Plenty of slack

That's strange

handbrake no easier than before, 2 hands = 2-3 clicks.

There is no "before" for me so I can't compare, but I also have 2 to 3 clicks both hands to get the 3
I expected to have a nightmare bleeding the system when fitting them, but it was all very straight forward.
I don't think rebleeding will get you anywhere, unless you still have air in the system but you would feel that in the foot brake .
I do think that on most cars where the handbrake is better positioned we wouldn't be having this discussion.
But as it is on a car that has a poorly positioned handbrake.

[ailwyn]

I know what you're saying Steve about the position, however if it was down to position only then the stock handbrake would have been a b*tch too, wouldn't it?

[Gazza]

On the old hi-spec calipers I had to use both hands to get to 2 clicks. Ended bending the handbrake lever and needing a new one. Bob fitted it and adjusted the handbrake so could get to 3 clicks by using 1 hand. Think it was all in the 2 rods and nuts attached to the handbrake bracket.

Since the new calipers were fitted I can't feel any difference at all to be honest. But as long as they don't leak who cares and get me through the mot in 10 months times.

Gazza

[bobbrown]

I think there is some history to the handbrake levers and although the S2 lever is better than the SE there are 2 versions of the SE lever so even Lotus did not get it right the first time around.
That said the distance between clicks in terms of cable travel on the original calipers needed to be quite large to move the levers the required amount to apply the handbrake. On the Hi Spec calipers the amount of travel is much smaller and I feel that the reason there is a variation on the amount of effort to apply the hand brake is due to the reduced distance needed and in some cases the handbrake may well be fully applied between clicks and trying to get it to lock in requires more effort than is really needed. I have only had a few replies with regards to new levers which will increase the travel required to apply the handbrake and decrease the effort and thus it should be easier to apply.
I need enough people interested other wise it is not worth getting the levers laser cut as the costs are high and there is a minimum order charge to take into consideration.

[Monty]

I get 4 clicks on the old calipers (with both hands)

Bob, i`m sure members will want the longer levers if there only £20 a pair, what about doing a seperate list

I`m in

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[RayD]

I'm not missing your point just do not understand why and what it is supposed to prove.

I can’t think of any other ways of putting it Bob … I was asking if anyone had checked if the new caliper lever had the capacity for effectively turning more than it is currently turning with the standard linkage.

Is the mechanism capable of withstanding more leverage?

And what happens when more leverage is applied?

Will the lever turn anymore than it is turning now?

Does it have a point where it stops applying the handbrake and starts unloading?

I thought you might get a feel for this by operating it at the caliper end to observe how much effort is needed to turn it beyond the point the handbrake cable is taking it to - and what happens when it does.

For instance … it may be the lever will turn further than it is doing now and exert more pressure on the pads with an improvement in performance.

Or it might be that the handbrake is fully on long before the handbrake lever stops moving.

Or it might be it gets to a certain point … stops exerting anymore pressure … but continues to move.

… if the lever on the caliper is extended then the travel on the hand brake lever is extended and the relative distance between clicks at the caliper is reduced. the only thing that changes is the mechanical advantage.

It does if you’re only focusing on the number of clicks … at the same time an extended lever will give more potential for turning the caliper lever further, easier. People might expect it will improve the braking force … and it might … or not … I was asking if anyone had checked.

My standard one has 6 clicks today when I checked … with enough slack you can have six clicks on the new ones, it’s just that it seems it will only be operating the brakes on the last three, or two, or in Paul’s case one.

If Pauls is only operating on one click it is possible all SE’s are … and that the others are just taking up the slack.

Or are you saying the new design does not work in some way …

No … and I can’t see anything I’ve said that sounds like it … I hope they do work, and I hope extending the lever improves the feel of the handbrake.

….. if you are implying the handbrake should be easier to apply, what do you think I'm trying to do.

I never intend to “imply” anything.

Is it possible to quantify how much effort is needed to operate the caliper lever without using the cable … on an un-installed caliper can you for instance push the lever through its full travel using your thumb … and what’s it like with the fluid in, and the pads out … will it operate by hand ... would the mechanism stand a longer lever and the cable housing moving out, I wonder?

Ray

[Alan_C]

Ray,

Do you have these calipers or any intentions of purchasing any? I'm asking as it seems, not to be impolite, that you tend to confuse the situation and contest much of what has been said, especially by Bob. I can see where you're coming from, especially regarding the proposed extended length caliper lever, but it's all very simple. A longer lever at the caliper end will require a longer pull of the handbrake lever with a corresponding lower required force to apply. The last thing this topic needs is more confusion, those of us who already have the calipers are confused and upset about it enough.

[chrisP]

Bob
The calipers should go back next week, as the car is off the rooad after ejecting a drive shaft from the gearbox.
Again, thanks for your efforts with hispec

Regards
Chris

[abmunro]

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[RayD]

Do you have these calipers or any intentions of purchasing any? I'm asking as it seems, not to be impolite, that you tend to confuse the situation and contest much of what has been said, especially by Bob. I can see where you're coming from, especially regarding the proposed extended length caliper lever, but it's all very simple. A longer lever at the caliper end will require a longer pull of the handbrake lever with a corresponding lower required force to apply. The last thing this topic needs is more confusion, those of us who already have the calipers are confused and upset about it enough.

I understand what you’re saying Alan,

Obviously it’s not my intention to confuse the situation - or to upset anyone - and I’m sorry if I've done so.

While I’m writing everything in a pleasant fashion I imagine there’s a way of reading it that can make it sound entirely different … one of the problems of the Internet.

It’s even worse when I’ve been aiming to explain things in simple manner.

I'll leave you to it.

Ray

[saska]

I'm asking as it seems, not to be impolite, that you tend to confuse the situation and contest much of what has been said, especially by Bob. I can see where you're coming from, especially regarding the proposed extended length caliper lever, but it's all very simple. A longer lever at the caliper end will require a longer pull of the handbrake lever with a corresponding lower required force to apply. The last thing this topic needs is more confusion, those of us who already have the calipers are confused and upset about it enough.

Alan,
I'd agree that it appears simple, except that it isn't. The real question is 'how long should the extension levers be?'
What RayD is saying is:
1. 'what is the maximum movement of the caliper handbrake mechanism ?' -- he suggests measuring that in say, angular degrees.
2. Will any damage occur if that maximium movement is exceeded ?
3. What length of lever gives you maximum movement (hand brake) without causing any damage?
4. From the above: what is the optimal length of the new handbrake levers?
My MK2 HiSpecs barely passed MOT at 19% for handbrake (16% required). The guys at the garage know me so I borrowed an apprentice and redid the brake tests on the same set of MAHA rollers. The 19% was at 3 clicks, at 4 clicks (takes effort) it was 28% which is a good pass. So the calipers are capable of good handbrake performance.
What Bob is saying, correctly, is that lengthening the lever arms means the lever travel will be smaller for any given handbrake movement (and also the effort required) hence a greater likelihood the hand brake can be maximully engaged.
What RayD is saying is: "what is the maximum, what length lever gives you this max and what happens if it is exceeded?"
Think this weekend I'm going to do as Ray suggests and see what the travel is from off to full on, in angular degrees, on the h/b lever itself and then make a couple of extension plates that extend the handbrake lever 0.5" & 1.0" and see what I find.
I'm not buying any hanbrake levers until I know how much they extend and why that amount of extension was chosen.
This has been a persistent problem which needs a solution, just making the levers longer by some unknown amount, isn't it. It needs to be the correct amount.

[RayD]

Thank you Tony,

Ray