What to do about heavy rust around the outriggers

[cliff]

Thanks Phil, that is great information and the photo's are just what I was looking for.

I was looking to cut out the outrigger at the A & B pillars and about 1cm over the top bend leaving the good metal in place and then only having to disbond/rebond the lower part.

Not having much of a clue about carbon composite, how easy would it be to fabricate and bond to the existing metal? Is there an easy way of working out the size of a carbon replacement for metal? This would certainly stop the corroded outrigger problem.

Good point about supporting the tub (stress jacking). As the door is going to have to be removed or be held open, then I think it would be a good idea to put a further support across the door frame to give added rigidity.

[bobbrown]

Be aware that steel and carbon fibre react so as to cause cathodic corrosion so you would need to keep the two insulated.

[surfboardfiller]

It's not an issue. Carbon is embedded in resin which will be cured and then bonded. The bond will be enough so would the resin, rough edges of trimmed carbon composite should be sealed anyway to protect against de lamination. There would not be any carbon exposed anywhere in the job so the carbon would not be in contact with steel.

This is a good source of Dinitrol and info on rust treating:
[url=http://]http://www.frost.co.uk/how-do-i-solve-rust-problems-with-dinitrol-rust-solutions[/url]

Cliff,
I'd make a tool and produce a batch of repair sections which can be bonded in place once a significant part of the steel is removed. The lower edge is not much of a problem and you will find it easy to remove once the middle is out. The steel is very thin and you can bend it easily with your hands. I use a hot knife to cut the sikaflex with one hand and pull the steel with the other hand stretching the bond but you may find it just pulls off. The foot well and A pillar is a lot more difficult.

To design a repair section I'd have to look at a few cars to see what the best strategy is, I may just have to design a full replacement of that steel sheet and then cut off what isn't needed for each individual case.
My only issue is liability and for that I'd have to ask my lawyer.

[cliff]

A steel replacement would not be too hard to manufacture but the same problems would resurface some years down the line. A full replacement in carbon would be a great idea. Bonding would also solve the problem of welding in some of the more difficult areas.

This is a problem that most of us are going to have to deal with at some stage.

[ashm]

Could it be fabricated in steel, hot-dip galvanised and bonded in? I've often worked with galvanised sections left out in the weather for years at a time and they usually weather surprisingly well.
Adam

[racerstev]

I would think steel would be the easy way to go here. Just a patch panel that could be welded at
the top and bonded at the bottom. Seems to me removing the top section would be very invasive.

The key to using steel is keeping it dry, one side of my car has no rust at all, the other does.

What really bothers me is this is were the seat belt attach's to the car.

Steve

[epipete]

Guys, we seem to have gone cold on this thread, today I noticed that the Nr side door was 'catching' on opening/closing (I guess there might be several possible causes?) and whilst I haven't looked properly yet this thread might be the worst case situation!

Have we worked out what to do?

Failing this any thoughts as to why my door might be misfitting?

Yours

[norman lovie]

After reading this thread, thought I better check this out before going any further - and as with most of the rust i've found so far - yes it's there - but I think i've just got away with it - - again - if this was left for another yr it would be a serious repair - as it is at the moment
there are several patch's of rust along the sides of the outriggers - at the offside seat mounts and x 1 only front jack point support will need a bit of work - possiblr simple cut and weld in a new base to the post - or maybe even get away with bolting up a few additional support brackets around the base of the support
the front corners themselves look ok - a bit of surface that scrapes back to metal

I assume i,ll need to get the hood out, then the hood boot plastic's removed - in order to get a bit of a look at the hidden B posts ? - the structure is ok at the rear B post corners from inside the cabin

It seem's the corrosion has come from bits of the floor base that has had a the odd stone bash - softening the fibre glass - dare say - then letting moisture in

so far - phew!

[norman lovie]

some pics of what to expect - as said - I suspect i'm lucky

Question: ok there is sign's of developing rust - but I wouldn't say rot - yet - right down in unobtaineum location bottom of the B pillers - so how do you go about getting serious inside there ??? - my thoughts are to pore lots of phosphate based rust convertor - like Rustbuster Fe-123 - followed by a good cavity wax and hope

you can see from pic's - left another yr and it would be

[bobbrown]

I have looked at mine and the rear section is not bad but the front is getting bad so time for a plan.
As the lower section of the metal is bonded to the tub and the area above is in the open I intend to cut the rot out an fold some new metal to fit, bond it to the tub and them weld it back in getting as close as I can to the glass fibre with out putting too much heat into it. Will weld it a little at a time letting it cool then weld a little more may take a while but should do the trick. As far as the lower edge of the A post is concerned that is going to get cut out part way up and the metal replaced along with the jacking point pin/cap screw.
I’ll take some pictures as the job progresses which should help others in the same situation but not a job for the feint hearted.

Taken some pictures and the job is not as bad as I first though as all the rot is along the bottom and the rear looks OK

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It looks like the coating/paint on the metal part has allowed water/moisture behind it and caused the rust to propagate in the direction of up and the foam does not help.
I've made a start and cut some of the rot out and removed the bottom part of the jacking point.

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Next is to drill out the spot welds on the braket that support the jacking point and make up a new one complete with M10 fixing and boss that sits in the large hole in the glass fibre part of the sill. There are small fixings through the tub that hold the lower edge in place probably only there while the adhesive sets.
My intention is to make up a new plate to replace the section removed and weld it along the top with the new bracket welded to it and then spot welded to the original section


I would recommend people take a look and if it is not rotten at least you have the chance to prevent it rotting, wire brush and Por15 springs to mind on the outside parts you can get to and loads of wax oil/ Dinitrol the parts you can not get at.

Bob

To be continued

[bobbrown]

There is was gone

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Made up a new Jacking point bracket having removed the old rusty one

8.JPG

Plus this bit will not go rusty as it is stainless steel still needs a bit of seam sealer to tidy it up

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Jacking point back in place

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Ready to weld up the join, could have cut the circle out but it would be a pain so thought leave it out.

Then it's time for some anti rust treatment, PO15 on the bits I can get at and Dinitrol in the rest of the cavity this time more towards the bottom than the top

[hatters]

A great job Bob
I daren't look at mine because if it is in the same state as yours there is absolutely no way I could repair it myself I am not that skilled with the welding torch !!

[DavidEJM]

I agree Hatters, I'm taking the 'head in sand' approach at the moment as I haven't got time to sort it even if I found it!

[bobbrown]

I think the critical point here is that you should take a look at least then you have the opportunity to at least treat the rust, just leaving it is not really an option as it will only get worse.
If I had looked say 5 years ago I may well have been in a position to stop the rot or at the very least slow it down considerably
The rust acts as a wick and draws moisture up the metal and under the paint causing the rust problem to escalate.
I personally think it is better to know and not bury your head in the sand and hope for the best.

I was going to use POR15 metal ready but it needs to be washed off which is not an option in side the sill so will use Dinitrol RC900 and then Dinitrol 3125 as it's for old metal, penetrates through rust and contains inhibitors. Not a lot of choice really but I do not want the rust coming back too soon.

Bob

[clemo]

i wonder what relation this rust has to the "leaks less/more than most" hood seals.

the 1st top gear review with goffy said "whilst it leaks lotus assure us it will be sorted by the time it goes to production"

alway garaged and never used in the rain cars may well be in better condition BUT thats not a very useable car in the UK.

[bobbrown]

I think the rust is due in some part to leaks in the seals and the fact it gets under the carpet and into the foam which takes for ever to dry out, this leaves the sill section sitting in a damp enviroment which does not help.

Garage queens may well be in better condition but it depends on the garage as changes in temperature can cause condensation to form.

I’ve had steel parts in the boot of my daily car have slight rust on them when left over night and the weather has been cold and damp and have even seen moisture on the machines in my garage which on the face of it is dry and has heating in it but not on all the time.

Do not think your car is not rusty as with out an inspection it could be and if the rust is only on the surface it is time to treat it before it gets any worse.

Bob

[norman lovie]

the rust is there, because these car's are now 20yr's+ yr's old, you think this is bad, you want to go look at a typical mid 90's SAAB ng900 //9-3 convertable

just the pains of living with age sore knee's, poor eye sight - -- and rust

[Ronee]

I agree Hatters, I'm taking the 'head in sand' approach at the moment as I haven't got time to sort it even if I found it!

i am doing the same and will continue to do so for now, if i cant see it then it is not really there!

i did put mine up on the ramp for the first time at the weekend and she looks pretty good underneath, and has been cared for so im just keeping my fingers crossed.

[bobbrown]

The problem with the "head in the sand" approach is that if there is minor rust it can be picked up and some treatment applied to stop it getting any worse.
If left it will get worse to the point that you go to jack the car up and the sill is damaged this can even happen on a two post lifts as the jacking points are used to lift the car, if the operator is the wrong side when he lifts the car this may not be picked up till the sound of crunching fiberglass is heard.

Bob

[epipete]

Bob, I agree with all that you have said and admire the repair that you have done.

I have yet to check mine out but won't be 'putting my head in the sand'! That said without your welding skills I wonder whether bonded carbon might still be the best way for most of us, and I am greatly concerned about the fabrication of jacking point and brackets, you fancy going in to business making some up!

Pete