What to do about heavy rust around the outriggers

[bobbrown]

I do not think it is possible to repair this section with carbon fiber, you would be reliant on the bond between the metal section and the carbon fiber never mind the fact you would have to mould the jacking point in with a captive nut and ensure it is in the correct place all very complicated.

Where I cut mine you need to put the jacking point bracket in first then the out side section and then weld it in.

It would be possible to make up the bracket and an outside section but each car I feel is going to be different in the amount of rust that is in this area so each is a bit unique

Bob

[DavidEJM]

OK, OK. I know you're right Bob. I will extract head and have a look as soon as is feasable.

Just has a load of welding done to the underside of my motorhome so I guess I ought to look to see if I can head off the problem with the Lotus.

[bobbrown]

I do not think it is something that needs to be done straight away may be a plan for the winter months unless you have the time and inclination to do it sooner.
There then comes the problem of how to treat the rust, firstly I attacked the rust with a wire brush (cup wheel) on a 4" angle grinder that certainly got rid of it quickley care was need not to touch the glass fiber panels. I then took a two way view on treatment as for all POR15 is a good product to use their marine clean and prep and ready it needs to be washed off which in the confines of the tub is not that easy to achieve never mind the fact some of the spaces are in side box section.

I used POR15 and their treatments in accessable areas and in non accessable ones used Dinitrol RC900 followed by a good coating of Dinitrol 3125 which I hope will hold the rust at bay. I also sealed the tub the metal part by not confining the POR15 to the metal I also painted about 2" into the floor so it should be sealed not only with Sikaflex but also the POR15.

Others may have different views on how to treat the rust and would be interesting to here others views.

Bob

[Ronee]

my excuse is i have only had my Elan 4 weeks so i want to admire and show it off for a bit longer before i find rust issues that will annoy the hell out of me as it wont be perfect, ignorance is bliss at the moment as shameful as that sounds

at the end of the summer (if we get finally get one) i will be doing the dreaded investigation and then i have at least all winter to get her sorted out if i find bad things

[madbilly]

I think I'll look before the end of summer so I can find out if I need to make the most of it while it (the car) lasts!

Also means I can plan when and how I'm going to deal with it (I've actually already seen some of it, at the bottom of the B-pillars from under the hood stowage shelf).

[bobbrown]

I
I've actually already seen some of it, at the bottom of the B-pillars from under the hood stowage shelf

That’s one of those inaccessible areas so I took the view of spray with Dinitrol RC900 followed by a good coating of Dinitrol 3125 probably too much 3125 but who cares as you can not see it.

[bobbrown]

Well I was thinking about leaving the other side, but then thought while it's in bits lets have a look no good sticking my head in the sand although I would have had a look during the winter anyway.
First impression it didn't look to bad and I thought initially I was going to get away with a bit of treatment, ha! that was short lived as cleaning the rust off just revealed holes. The jacking point was just rust at the bottom and once the rust was removed there was a gap of ½” + from the captive nut to the metal work the rest had gone.
It’s not as bad as the other side but job is about the same, fold up a new jacking point and plate and weld it in.
Sheet metal bashing and welding tommorow.
At least once it is done I know I am safe to jack the car on the jacking points.

I may well look at making a jig up to replicate the jacking point bracket so they can then be replicated with a piece of sheet should give a repair section.

Bob

[epipete]

Bob, thanks for your earlier comments, if you do make up jig etc as suggested then I, for one, would be very interested!

Pete

[JIMBO]

Bob, Making a template to replicate the repair section sounds like a good idea.most of us on here have no idea as to what lurks under the carpet and I would think a good few will be required over the next couple of years. Time for a bigger shed to work from?
Jim

[bobbrown]

If there is enough demand I can get a repair section made up buy the company that makes up the gear cable brackets which will mean cutting out the old and welding in a new.
It may get a little tricky on cars that have rust extended up to the top section particularly around the A post but I may be able to include the top section, then the repair piece can be cut to suit with the jacking point separate to be welded in place once the sill repair panel is in place.
I can draw it all up and get some costings on the bits.

I think Rip's is going to be a challenge as that one extends to the top may need to cut part of the glassfiber away on that one and glass it back in once welded is complete, it may not be ideal but it will certainly be stronger than a rusty inner sill and still allow the cars jacking points to be used.

As a note when you remove the sill cover which is held down with a butyl sealer strip, do not stick it back with Sikaflex or you'll never get it off again, the sealer strip is available here LINK more than enough to do the sill covers.

Bob

[cliff]

Bob, once again, great work. I would definitely be interested in a repair section, my sheety skills are somewhat lacking.

CIMG0733.jpg

I posted some pics earlier in the thread, the left side of my car is not quite as bad as Rip's but needs the top part replacing as well. I think with the fuse box removed and that glass section cut out, access should be OK. For me, and I guess many others, a top section would be a good idea.

[bobbrown]

Both sides now done and most of the car is back together, unfortunately I did not have my camera with me to take pictures of the other side which was a little annoying as I put the large hole back in that side. At least now I can jack the car up in the front jacking points with out fear of going through the body panels.

I found the job quit time consuming not in terms of how long the work actually takes it is more the time it takes for the Stikaflex and Por15 to dry.
I terms of time a day to cut out the rust back to clean metal and fabricate the new parts, Paint the jacking point with Por15 and leave overnight, then fix in place and leave over night for the stikaflex to set, then fit the outer part and again leave overnight to let the stikaflex set then weld it in place clean up and paint and another overnight for the paint to dry and finally treat the hidden sections and leave for a bit to let the solvent evaporate then put back together. About 5 days in total but only probably 8 hours work.

Bob

[norman lovie]

Others may have different views on how to treat the rust and would be interesting to here others views.

Bob

I use the rustbuster products but the same basic proccess
remove loose / structurally unsound rust ( surface rust is ok to leave i.e. you don't need to get too fussy) - your typical 3 point paint scrapper is a very good tool for this - then wire brush / grinder etc.. ( if you have money and like tools then get one of these for rust bustin http://www.qpaints.co.uk/mbx-abrading-tool.html)

degrease and de salt: probably one of the least done and most important parts - it's not for the grease you see, it's for the bit's that are imbebed in the rough surface finish of the parts - - - plenty products available as decent degreaser / detergents
wash off degreaser - yip the tub is now flowing so apreciate you need all the carpets and stuff out
then I use a pre paint treatment - phosphate product as a surface rust stabaliser ( phos-Kleen-B for light to clean metal and fe-123 for parts that you can't easy get to)
then you paint it - first go round all the metal edges a wick a bead of paint along the edge - especially if you have two sheets of metal sandwiched together
once this is set then its x 2 coates of the Mastic 121 twin pack- - it's actually more like a coloured glue

now you can also water down the fe-123 and spray it into cavities - this is rust convertor stablaiser that forms a sealed skin over the stabalised rust - not sure if this is better than a cavity wax - it's an option

then you paint / spray cavity wax - and I use Dinitrol 3125 = seems to be well regarded stuff

the killers are using a porus top coat - std common paints - using a paint that is non flexable and chips and leaving tiny spots of grease / salt on the surface that will progress to rust spoting under your new top coat and happily eat away until finally a bubble appears that you can poke your finger through - -- and thin edge's that don't get an proper sealing top coat = induces flaking in from the edges

oh - and using hammerite = who obviously invest more in marketing bollocks than product testing

[epipete]

Daft question! But out of interest, what thickness of steel is required for the repair?

[bobbrown]

I just used some material that we had which was very slightly thicker, next time I'm over the barn I'll measure the but I cut out.

Bob

[epipete]

Bob, again I'd be greatfull for that.

Of interest, the steel cill sections are bonded along the edge against the fibreglass/plastic of the tub, similarly there are two steel sections that are bonded to the cills and the floor pan (most notable at the rear where the seatbelt bolts to the outrigger)

Do we know what the bonding agent used for this was/is? And if it is sufficiently strong enough, as would seem, is this a solution to fixing new metal sections instead of welding (for those of us who don't/can't! )

If so it only leaves the issue of the jacking points (fabrication & welding)

Pete

[epipete]

It's never simple is it, my front jacking points are shot (as is that section of the outrigger), in order to remove the jacking point I need to drill out 6 (should be 8 but the lower 2 are already gone!) spot welds on each side and remove the jacking point (bolt) from below.

The bolt is rusted solid through the cill into what remains of the outrigger any attempt to turn the bolt results in a twisting of the bracket in the outrigger!

Any ideas for a solution? I fear that I shall have to remove the spot welds and then remove the bracket with the jacking point in situ with a consequent damage to the fibreglass, then put in new brackets, repair the fibreglass and then put in the new bolt! Does this sound sensible, any other thoughts?

Pete

[bobbrown]

Here's what I did.

Cut the section of inner sill that you are going to be replacing, I did the major cutting with a 4 1/2" angle grinder with a thin cutting disc (1mm thick) and finished of the in the tight spots with a cutting disc in a Dremel. You need to be careful and the tricky one is the Dremel as the discs are fragile but cheap enough not to have to worry about them.
Drill out the spot welds, I was not concerned with the hole as I would be using that to weld the new bracket in place.
Then came the tricky part of getting the head off the bolt at the bottom, again with the large grinder and cutting disc cut as close to the fibreglass as I dare and cut the majority of the head off, then with the Dremel ground out the rest from the center such that the outside remnants could be pulled off then tapped the bolt through.

Be aware there is a shim/spacer that sits between the bolt head and the internal bracket this is so the load is transferred to the bracket and not into the fibreglass.
The shims/spacers are 1, 1.5, and 3mm thick and need to match the thickness of fibreglass, mine were rusted so replaced them with stainless steel ones matched in thickness to what came out.

There were some small fixing, were being the operative word as they were all but rusted away, along the bottom edge of the sill. I replaced these with 5mm stainless steel button head screws and a washer to spread the load on the fibreglass, nut on the inside.

[epipete]

Thanks Bob, that's good advice, certainly for the Off side where the cill/fibreglass is still intact, the Nr side fibreglass is badly fractured around the point so will need re doing in its entirety.

I'm sorry to be a pain, keeping on hounding you like this, but, other than myself, you appear to be the only person who has undertaken remedial activity to the same level as I require.

What did you use for the 'disks' when fabricating your points? Is this off the shelf or, again, hand turned? Getting similar may be a problem if the latter!

The shim spacer location; just to be clear, is this as follows:

bottom of bracket, space filled with
shims/spacers tightly inserted to,
Internal fibreglass cill,
mounting point disk on external fibreglass cill
stud, tightened up to a nut in the bottom of the bracket

As to the small fixings, do you think it necessary to replace as I suspect that their function was in the bonding of the original panels and as such they are redundant now?

Regards

[petezipp]

my frt n_side2.JPG

Thanks for the warning I thought I would start to look at mine.

First nearside front doesn’t look too bad so I have rust treated and will apply wax to all the areas behind the inner panel.
The bits I can feel seem ok, but there will be a hole where the metal has rusted in the corner.

My question is : does the area need to drain or should it be sealed as it looks originally?
I have conducted the mod to put 8mm holes in the underside of the sill which will drain the outer part of the outrigger. There are no apparent holes in the floor pan to drain like a “normal” car.

Obviously I am tracing any leak points in the door area but as we all know the carpet always seems to get wet at the front near the a post. I doubt it is possible to completely prevent moisture from forming inside the front upright.

A second likely candidate is the sill capping – this is always wet after a shower. It seems the shape is not conducive to sending water outside the car but more possibly inside again soaking the carpet.

Any ideas welcome
Peter(wet knee)