Custom Rear Hubs, Bearings & Discs

[Karl Martin]

Jeemy, you appear to be a little upset....I don’t think anybody is intentionally yelling at you or trying to be impatient, just discussing their relevant views, you may have misconstrued their posting?

I think everybody is highly appreciative of all the work you are putting in, certainly I am.

My last post was simply to try and clarify the ref numbers to the cost of the different types of Aluminium, not trying to highlight any mix up you may have made over the numbers in any kind of contemptuous way.

I would have thought that any reputable company who are manufacturing these items, would already have the expertise to know which materials are suitable and it would be their responsibility, not yours, to produce a safe product, the whole reason why we ask their advice in the first place.

In my particular case, my reason for going with Aluminium is for weight reduction and corrosion resistance, not price. I am actually surprised that Aluminium is cheaper than Steel, I would have thought it would be the other way around. Time is not so important as the quality of the product, so take as long as you like and if the price needs to be raised accordingly, then so be it.

[Karl Martin]

Ray,

Did anybody give any reasons as to why any of the various versions of aluminium hubs that Bob proposed, on the forum, weren't suitable?

[RayD]

Ray,
Did anybody give any reasons as to why any of the various versions of aluminium hubs that Bob proposed, on the forum, weren't suitable?

Only me Karl, as far as I remember, and all of the versions were unsuitable.

There was another person who eventually felt the same way ... Bob.

Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 4:25 PM
Subject: RE: Rear Hub
Hi Ray
Oh well nice to get proven wrong once in a while ...

Previously, on 7 October 2008 11:53 I had asked Bob to ask the supplier the price of a steel version which turned out to be £162.40 and this is the option they went with.

Clearly it’s possible to make aluminium hubs for cars and I’m sure you could make them for an M100 but they wouldn’t bear any resemblance to the ones proposed on the forum. The problem with getting them from Bob's original supplier is they may be related to Bob's discarded design and without risking insulting someone at the firm you're not going to find out.

A component being slightly lighter, or having a different capacity for corroding isn’t going to make any noticeable difference on an Élan. Personally I'd stick to ordinary steel.

Does anyone have any pictures of an aluminium rear hub on an Elan?

Ray

[Jeemy]

Given the concerns, I think its clear that the aluminium hub option should be discarded for much the same reasons as before.

As I say, Alan_C did say he's had aluminium hubs on his car for 3 years and the engineers told me they made some, obviously I can't prove they are one and the same. So despite their assurances they would be suitable and the possible savings I think its best to kick this option into touch.

I'll collate the list together again when I have a bit more time. Working 16+hour days for the next 2 months but it won't take long once I get a few almost-finished projects out the way.

[Jeemy]

OK as discussed above, I will no longer be sorting aluminium hubs for anybody.

Here's how the remainder of this Group Buy will pan out.

- I've now paid a deposit for the order, the certification and requested answers to all the queries to show goodwill and that this is a firm order
- the full material specification, weights etc will be made available within the week, or when I can get it. It is the same as the last production run of these hubs, we are using the same manufacturer. So there should be no concerns. Equally I understand that there are. Despite these having been produced successfully as recently as 2011, I will shortly be publishing the full details of the hubs, technical drawings and specs, as much info as I can get my hands on, to ensure everybody is happy
- I will only be arranging production of the carbon steel hubs.
- I am not an engineer. We currently have no qualified engineer handling productions of these items (I am not sure if we ever DID have anybody qualified per se) and so I have located the original supplier and taken on the project to satisfy my demand and others'. Therefore I make no representations as to the safety or fitness for purpose of these items, over and above the information I am qualified to provide, and as with any aftermarket or modified part or modification provided or recommended to you by a member of LEC rather than directly from a qualified engineer and/or official Lotus dealer, fitment to and usage of these parts on your Elan is at your own risk.
- I have moved Steve M onto this Steel list, but he may want to remove himself.
- anybody else, copy and paste the list below, adding yourself, indicating if you want to collect in East Lothian or not to have bearings pressed in and sealed
- the list will close at 30 people or on Friday 12th July, whichever occurs soonest.
- a deposit of £50 GBP to secure your order payable by Friday 19th July, when I will confirm the order for August production. At this stage I will pay the whole order making it up to the nearest 10. Additional hubs will be available for a higher purchase price with a donation to LEC, or via eBay still with a donation if not taken up during production.
- production will be 4 weeks so I anticipate with leeway taking delivery of these Friday 23rd August.

Payment in full will then be required by Friday 30th August. Once received, your goods will be sent out via insured courier, securely packed.

Escrow Should you wish escrow on your payment, I will offer an option where you pay for the goods online, the money is held securely by an escrow company, and on receipt you have 5 days to inspect the goods before authorising and releasing the payment. Please mark - Escrow against your name. You will be liable for fees incurred which are approx £3-5.

International Shipping Shipping to the EU and USA is estimated at £30 via UPS.

If no payment is received by Friday 6th September, you will lose your deposit and hubs will go back for sale, once sold, your deposit will be returned to you.

If anybody plans on being on holiday they can pay earlier than these dates.

Discs to fit the hubs are up to you. Closer to the time I will compile a list of compatible discs and suppliers.

*CARBON STEEL REAR HUBS*

Hubs (pair) £130.48
Bearings (pair, seals & fitting) £36
Shipping & packing £10
Total cost: £176.48
All prices include VAT at 20%. A VAT receipt can be provided.

***Copy & paste from here downwards, adding or editing your name***

*CARBON STEEL REAR HUBS*

1. Jeemy
2. Nobby
3. theelanman
4.tb10 (N/A)
5.tb10 (S2 #790)
6.tb10 (S2 #711)
7. Nippy
8. Propshaft
9. davidcgriffiths
10. Karl Martin
11. lansledj
12. djcar
13. Rambo - when available will have a to East Lothian and pick up in person
14. ESM
15.paulsmithmk
16.paul27848
17.Steve Matthews (no bearings)
18.
19.
20.
21.
22.
23.
24.
25.
26.
27.
28.
29.
30.

[m100sandra]

*CARBON STEEL REAR HUBS*

1. Jeemy
2. Nobby
3. theelanman
4.tb10 (N/A)
5.tb10 (S2 #790)
6.tb10 (S2 #711)
7. Nippy
8. Propshaft
9. davidcgriffiths
10. Karl Martin
11. lansledj
12. djcar
13. Rambo - when available will have a to East Lothian and pick up in person
14. ESM
15.paulsmithmk
16.paul27848
17.Steve Matthews (no bearings)
18. Sandra (M100sandra)
19.
20.
21.
22.
23.
24.
25.
26.
27.
28.
29.
30.

[Rambo]

Jeemy - can you PM me your address and I will pay in full up front to help with your cash flow I will collect in person so it gives me an excuse for a detour to East Lothian. You can even have a shot of a working Elan if you are in need

PS Well done for organising this group buy. I'm sure we are all very appreciative of your hard work to date

[Jeemy]

I will send a PM to everybody with all the payment methods, addresses, my company registered address, VAT details and surcharges if any. As a VAT-registered business trading 20 years plus I can accept virtually any method with minimal charges. Thanks to all for the kind words.

I'll resend the same PM as more people add themselves.

[Nippy]

Hi Jeemy. I would like to include the sealed bearings thank you. I cannot get to East Lothian!! So am happy to pay you £176.48 (up front if you want). Thank you so much for doing this.

[Jeemy]

*CARBON STEEL REAR HUBS*

1. Jeemy
2. Nobby
3. theelanman
4. tb10 (N/A)
5. tb10 (S2 #790)
6. tb10 (S2 #711)
7. Nippy
8. Propshaft
9. davidcgriffiths
10. Karl Martin
11. lansledj
12. djcar
13. Rambo - when available will have a (drive) to East Lothian and pick up in person
14. ESM
15. paulsmithmk
16. paul27848
17. Steve Matthews (no bearings)
18. Sandra (M100sandra)
19. Nippy
20.
21.
22.
23.
24.
25.
26.
27.
28.
29.
30.

[RayD]

I may have skirted round Karl's question about why the aluminium hubs proposed on the forum were unsuitable ... I'm quite happy to explain if anyone thinks it would be useful.

One slight problem of having the bearings fitted dispenses with the opportunity to try them separately on the stub shaft.

and Jamie ... if there's anything I can do sat here to help with the group buy it will be no trouble.

Ray

[Jeemy]

Please note I have edited the terms of the Group Buy with a phrase that should probably in the interests of being professional, be quoted on every Group Buy going forward. After discussion with LEC 'management' I am waiting for authorisation to re-use other peoples' photos and documentation that I used in identifying the hubs and will provide as much detail as I can on the make-up, specs, measurements etc including re-measuring and test fitting an initial item myself.

While I always intended to take every care over this I appreciate my simple assurance that the hubs are the same as previously ordered and fitted to others' cars, may not be enough, and the flip side of that is that the following (often said in passing by people, and one always assumes it goes without saying) must also be made clear:

I make no representations as to the safety or fitness for purpose of these items, over and above the information I am qualified to provide, and as with any aftermarket or modified part or modification provided or recommended to you by a member of LEC rather than directly from a qualified engineer and/or official Lotus dealer, fitment to and usage of these parts on your Elan is at your own risk.

[Nippy]

There am I tying to be nice, ordinary and helpful and I think I did the opposite. In my last entry I was trying to answer 'What I would like' in response to your 'bearings' question. So I asked for mine to be the £176.48 pack. ie including the bearings. Somehow this has got me on the list twice. I only want one set, so please delete the latter Nippy from the list.
I am sorry to have unwittingly added to your workload Jeemy when all I was trying to do (very badly) was being helpful.

[Brit-Car-Nut]

*CARBON STEEL REAR HUBS*

1. Jeemy
2. Nobby
3. theelanman
4. tb10 (N/A)
5. tb10 (S2 #790)
6. tb10 (S2 #711)
7. Nippy with Bearings
8. Propshaft with Bearings
9. davidcgriffiths
10. Karl Martin
11. lansledj
12. djcar
13. Rambo - when available will have a (drive) to East Lothian and pick up in person
14. ESM
15. paulsmithmk
16. paul27848
17. Steve Matthews (no bearings)
18. Sandra (M100sandra)
19.
20.
21.
22.
23.
24.
25.
26.
27.
28.
29.
30.

[Karl Martin]

Ray,

I would be interested as to the reasons why you think the aluminium hubs proposed on the forum were unsuitable.

You also said “One slight problem of having the bearings fitted, dispenses with the opportunity to try them separately on the stub shaft.”

Can you please explain this, in simple terms?

[RayD]

It is only a slight problem Karl,

Under normal circumstances you would make sure the inner race (item 2) fits securely onto the red part of the stub shaft before assembling the bearing (items 2 and 3) and oil seal (item 1) into the hub.

The reason for doing this, is in case the bearing has spun on the shaft at sometime, reducing its diameter.

If the bearings are fitted at the factory only the oil seal would need to be removed to gain access to the loose inner race.

And in any case ... you will have the old inner race laying on the garage floor which you could try on the shaft. If the old one fits properly the new one certainly will.

Being considerably harder it is unlikely the inner surface of the bearing would wear away ... only the shaft would suffer in the event of a failure.

How tight does the inner race want to be on the stub shaft? ... you ought to be able to tap it on ... you shouldn't be able to simply slide it on ... it certainly shouldn't be possible to turn it by hand ... it ought to be the sort of tightness you would associate with it staying exactly where it is, considering the only thing trying to turn it is the greased movement of the bearing rollers, albeit with a quarter of the weight of a car on it.

The new outboard inner race will be accessible.

Ray

[propshaft]

Hi Jeemy I would like my hubs fitting with the sealed bearings I will be paying by check up front could you let me have your address this is my first purchase on the forum Regards propshaft

[dapinky]

I know I'm late to the party on this (having just got back from a holiday in USA), and have no desire to argue, agree with, or other such considerations and/or opinions so far discussed (I also already have a set of the steel hubs, so am not interested in this poarticular item at this stage, but will still add my 2p worth to the whole lot.....

....firstly, I wish to thank Jamie publically for taking the project on and resurecting it from the despairing place we all ended up at in relation to everything BB has achieved....

....secondly, I don't believe that anyone has deliberately posted anything wishing to denigrate these efforts to provide A GOOD ITEM.....

....Disclaimers and/or waivers are fine for personal comfort blankets (and possibly more so in the litigation-obsessed colonies ) - but hold little water under UK law - Sale of Goods Act prevails. (that said, there is a distinct difference between the maker and the supplier, and no-one would suggest that Jamie is the supplier of these items, 'just' the distributor).

I am also NOT an engineer, but I know lots of them!!!

I have owned (and raced,rallied or otherwise competed in) a variety of vehicles with alloy hubs, all of which have worked well......

....as such, (and with a reasonable history of forensic vehicle analysis), can say this - the issue isn't in making an aluminium hub which will do the job, the issue is in replicating the original design (& SIZE) in a different material and expecting it to do EXACTLY the same job - whilst an ally hub can be made, re-making the original in ally isn't the same thing at all....

...as such, the company is right, Jamie is right, Ray is right and Geoff is right (I think that's everyone covered).

of all of the above names, I would personally trust Ray's oppinion the most - and he originally said that steel is the 'best' material to make the original items a few years ago, and provided all the info to back it up (well over my head)....

...the items have been in regular use ever since, and none have failed - thats good enough for me!

Just ask yourself why you're getting them - the original idea was so that different sized discs could be fitted to match whatever you had on the front - next came the fact that discs can be cheaply replaced when they wear out (not very often, to be honest!), and finally the whole cost was less than a pair of OE disc/hub assemblies from Lotus....

...nowhere was the 'problem' of unsprung weight mentioned (although it was a consideration).

After all - how many of us are really good enough to notice the difference (maybe one or two who do the serious competition stuff - Steve is the one who springs to mind) - and if we really want to go that extra few ounces, then just use bald tyres - less rubber than on a new one

[Karl Martin]

Thank you for the info. Ray.

I like the idea of aluminium because, apart from the weight saving, the mountings supplied as part of my front brake conversion are hard anodized aluminium and after three years, have absolutely no corrosion on them whatsoever....unlike all the rust appearing on my ‘stainless steel’ exhaust!

[Jeemy]

I'd like to ask again that further discussion of this and other items I've proposed be done in the Machined Parts thread I created, as requested before. I have posted a response there.