One touch window up/down control

[Elanlover]

Just curious if anyone would have interest in such an upgrade if possible. I've worked with an electrical engineer out of the UK in the past for some custom projects and was thinking about seeig if he might build a module for this. There are aftermarket add-ons but I'm not thrilled with the way they operate. My preference for operation would be:

1) uses the existing window buttons and electronics - no visible modifications needed
2) one touch (depressed for less than half a second as an example but possibly adjustable via a pot) would roll the windows up or down
3) the windows would roll up or down for a preset (but possibly configurable via a pot) duration to ensure the window rolls up or down completely
4) Holding the window switch (up or down) allows control over the window movement

In a perfect world, there's be a limit switch installed in the door to sense the extent of up or down travel and shut the window motor off. However, I think that'd be problematic to install and position correctly and i don't think it would be too damaging to the window motors to run a second or two after the windows all the way up or down if need be (I think we all hold the window switch down a bit longer than is needed anyway). Any other suggestions are welcome and I'm looking to gauge interest. I've no idea what it might cost at this point but, based on the last module built, this could be a $100 upgrade plus or minus something.....

[baldyash]

Mine are one touch. My car came like that. Tied in with the alarm I believe----somehow!

[racerstev]

There are a few off the self options to do this. DEI and Autopage are 2 I have used in the past.
Normally the units work off of an amperage spike that is adjustable on most. Most also have a
auto up and down from the switch as well as a control from a remote control, some have a vent feature
that just opens the window a inch or two.

[Elanlover]

I am familiar with the Autoloc product. I wasn't overly impressed with what it did especially for the cost. There wasn't a whole lot of functionality - it simply converted your one press into a continuous signal to the window motor for whatever duration you set the module for. While going down (or up) a tap in the opposite direction stopped it. I think I want more than that for the money.

So far my conversations with my contact are leading to a single module that will:
1) a touch less than half a second = window goes all the way down (duration around 5 seconds) or up depending on your choice
2) a touch while this is happening will stop the motor
3) a touch over half a second gives you control - window goes down or up for as long as you hold it
4) (some of you will love this as its been asked about in the past) a rapid double touch will drop the window an inch or so then raise it back up - great for reseating the window seals against the roof

I am going to investigate the inclusion of a small switch or sensor such that when the roof is closed, the system will know this and when the door is opened it will drop the window then close it when the door closes automatically. Estimated cost for one module to do both windows (not including sensor addition previously mentioned) is now 50 GBP (apprxox. 80 USD)

Any interest?

[DaveB]

Yep... especially the roof-up-window-drop-thingy...

[RichardK]

Yes, I would definitely be interested.....

[Fetnas]

I've thought about this idea in the past, including a window drop when the doors open feature as exists in many modern convertible cars, to get a tighter close around the seals. Unfortunately I don't have the time to develop such a system! But if someone is willing to do the leg work to put a solution together, count me in!

[dapinky]

A system which drops the windows 20mm or so, activated from the central locking/alarm remote would be a huge help in developing a seal system using a 'standard' profile U section to seal the gaps between hood and windows......

...assuming that when you shut the doors (with windows open), and then lock the car, the windows go up again into the seal.....

......obviously, I have to accept the compromise that the car lives in England where it rains, so every time i unlock the car, the windows will open and water will get in anyway

[nicowalker1]

A system which drops the windows 20mm or so, activated from the central locking/alarm remote would be a huge help in developing a seal system using a 'standard' profile U section to seal the gaps between hood and windows......

...assuming that when you shut the doors (with windows open), and then lock the car, the windows go up again into the seal.....

......obviously, I have to accept the compromise that the car lives in England where it rains, so every time i unlock the car, the windows will open and water will get in anyway

Its worked for many other sports cars so cant see it been any worse than the constant trickle we get with current designs ...

[dunnlor]

I am going to investigate the inclusion of a small switch or sensor such that when the roof is closed, the system will know this and when the door is opened it will drop the window then close it when the door closes automatically.

Is a sensor necessary? What if the window dropped a small amount whenever the door was opened, and then raised the same amount when the door was closed?

[Elanlover]

Is a sensor necessary? What if the window dropped a small amount whenever the door was opened, and then raised the same amount when the door was closed?

I've just had that conversation (via email) with my supplier and it may be that a sensor will have to be dropped. The only possible way of doing it is to mount it in the header rail somewhere using a small magnet and reed switch. But, that would mean wiring up a reed switch into the header rail (with all the wires) and finding a way to embed the magnet into the seal. Not pretty. But, there's another issue.

We could simply take a lead from the door wring (interior light for example or each individual door) to sense when the door opens or closes and start the process then but what if the window is already open? I don't think we need it to run its down/up process if the window is already down. If it did, the result would be the window closing by a half inch or so for no reason. So, we can either find a way to detect if the window is already all the way up and, if it is, run the process on door open (or close) OR we can go back to the original concept which was a double tap on the switch starts the process. The latter is less automatic in that we have to initiate it but it eliminates all sensors and the possibility of it running the process with the windows already down.

Any preferences?

[GeoffSmith]

My window dropper circuit senses when the hood is down (as opposed to up as it's a lot simpler) to inhibit the window drop / rise cycle. The door switches are rewired via diodes to the interior lights so I can determine which door is operating. When I get around to replacing my (blown) door speakers, I was going to look into adding end stop sensors.

I also have a custom relay design for automatic operation of the windows but my switches have a lot of bounce so it needs more work to clean them up and even then they may not operate consistently. Be warned, you may have similar issues as the GM switches are not well sealed (designed for use in tin tops) and may have been exposed to 20 years of damp.

[Elanlover]

Ok then, I've been corresponding with "my supplier" (sounds like a contraband connection) and Geoff (also sounding like a contraband connection) and there's really a variety of ways to go on this. The ultimate direction will be reflected in the cost and the simplicity of installation. Below is a summary of these discussion points, the options possible and the ramifications of each. Once again, I'm looking for comments and opinions from interested folks and would appreciate them referenced to each item below.

1. PACKAGING:
a) Done in a single module that would involve splicing into the existing wiring under the centre console or possibly elsewhere. This would be the least expensive route but the most time consuming in terms of installation and the most technical in that some minimal knowledge of splicing and wiring would be involved. Its unknown as yet what the size of the module would need to be so there's the possibility that it would have to be mounted remotely behind the dash or near the battery as there's not a huge amount of space under the centre console.

b) Done in 4 packages resembling relays. This would be the most elegant solution as all the electronics would be in a relay that would simply replace the existing 4 relays operating the window lifts and would be a snap to install requiring little or no wiring (depending on other options below). It would, however, likely be at least 3 times the cost of a single module - the price for convenience.

2. TO POT OR NOT TO POT
a) The length of time the windows would run up or down to ensure a full open or full close position when this feature is activated would be determined by a preset time built into the module. This would likely be a second longer than the operation takes manually to ensure it does, in fact, completely close or open. Cheaper due to less components but might also be detrimental to the window motors in the long run. Its not as though we all haven't held the window button down longer than necessary and the motors do have some protection built in but there's no way to understand the long terms impact of always running them longer than required.

b) The length of time could be controlled by adjustable pots on the module itself. Slightly more costly due to the added components and it offers a method of customizing the run times for each car (likely to be some variations due to aging, etc.). But, there will still be some running of the window motors longer than necessary.

c) A couple of limit switches per side could be added to the equation that would sense when the window is in full open or full close and stop the window motor from running. This will increase cost further due to the added switches and complicate installation as you would need to now open up the door panels to mount the switches in each side. Its better than the above two options but definitely harder to install and the very high probability of the switches moving about over time and needing to be readjusted concerns me personally.

d) Geoff has determined that there is an increase in voltage draw when the window reaches its full travel (up or down) that could possibly be sensed. If so, this could be incorporated into the module requiring no extra wiring and operate like the limit switch above but without the associated problems. Best solution by far but likely to be the most expensive.

3. AUTO RESEALER
a) An optional feature to either manually or automatically drop (an inch) and raise the window to get a better window/roof seal. In the manual method a double tap motion (or similar) could start this process either on an individual window basis (you'd need to do the process for each side) or the drivers side action would do both sides. Manually is cheaper and eliminates some potential problems/installation complications mentioned below.

b) This feature could be done automatically when a door is opened by tapping into the interior light system which comes on when the door is opened. We could get more sophisticated by sensing which door is opened and only running the process on that side. More cost and a more complicated installation required with more wiring involved.

c) Since this operation really only needs to be activated if the windows are already completely up when you open the doors some form of sensor could be added for this - possibly for each side. Again, more cost, more complicated installation and more points of failure.

d) Not only does this operation need to be run only when the windows are up, it doesn't need to be run unless the roof is up as well. So, another senor to determine if the roof is up or down can be added with the same impact as above - more cost, complication of install and failure points added.

Although I am looking at this for myself I'd like to create a module(s) that can satisfy many people's needs and turn this into a group buy if possible. My personal preferences are below:

1) Would love 4 relay packages as its minimal install and no cutting up of the stock wiring but would be happy with 1 module spliced into the existing wiring especially if significantly cheaper.
2) Would love voltage sensing but would be happy with a preset run time (will take my chances with the window motors) if significantly less expensive).
3) Like the idea of the auto resealer but I think the addition of all those sensors is a lot - manually doing it for both windows from the driver's side switch (especially if voltage sensing from point 2 is included) is fine by me as its not like I do it a lot anyway.

Thoughts and comments please!

[Fetnas]

Great work so far Elanlover. I think you've covered all relevant options, here are my 2 cents for what it's worth.

1. Either package option would be fine, cost will probably drive the final decision if this goes ahead, I don't have a problem with tapping into existing wiring.

2. I think the voltage sensing option is the best here. If the window is half way up, the pot setup could put too much stress on the lift system and limit switches would be a pain to wire and get working reliably. Worth the extra cost for the simpler installation, better reliability and reduced ware on the motors.

3. I'd like to have a setup where the windows drop when the doors are opened and lift again when closed. I'm not fussed if the do this when the roof is down or the windows weren't fully closed. Modern soft top cars I've seen with this feature drop the windows about a cm, which probably wouldn't be noticed when the roof is down. One additional issue I've just though of with this option, the window switches aren't powered when the ignition is off, a permanent 12v would need to be connected to the module and the relays to make this happen. The system would also have to have a switched 12v from the ignition so that the up and down buttons on the centre console are only activated when the ignition is on. I haven't looked at the wiring diagram so I'm not sure exactly how the system is set up, this might not be a problem but something to keep in mind.

Keep up the good work, I hope the plans come together on this project.

[Elanlover]

A power source for the module(s) will be a requirement. Plenty of places to draw that from but it makes one module (instead of 4) look more and more attractive.

[GeoffSmith]

Just a few points:

1) The motors are protected and the current is cut pretty swiftly once the end stop / obstruction is hit but the current ramps up from ~4A (lowering) or ~10A (raising) to 15 to 20A and obviously puts a lot of strain on the mechanism. This is one reason why I decided to go for relay replacement modules as I can easily sense the current with an inline resistor. I'm also going to be using a PIC so I can adjust the trip current. As I am putting a PIC in the relays to sense the current, I can use the additional I/O to implement the one touch facility as it's only a bit of software but if you're not too bothered about the current sensing then the best place for the one touch facility is probably next to the window switches as it won't have to be replicated 4 times. The relay modules have the advantage of having their own hard 12V supply of course.

2) I have found the lack of supply at the window switches is a pain when the ignition is switched off which is why I've got an IGN extender feeding the window switches fed from the 3A fused analogue clock - I can now shut the windows for up to ~1 minute after turning off the ignition. If you're going to do a central one touch design, then you just need to provide a suitable hard 12V like the clock.

3) My window drop/raise design (not yet fitted) has inputs which senses if the roof is down, which door is open then drops the corresponding window for a preset time then raises it (one of the reasons why I want to incorporate current sensing in the relays) when the door is shut. The prototype is all analogue (because that's far more interesting to design and adjustable with pots and resistor changes) to prove the principal but I plan to shrink and simplify the design by going to a PIC or Arduino microcontroller (which can still be reprogrammed to change timings if necessary). If you go the centralised one touch controller route, you could run back the relevant inputs to achieve the same end result but motor current sensing might not be easy (insert 10mohm resistor in feed to each motor and run a pair of sensing wires back to the controller) as it will depend on where you can pick up the feeds and will require a small unit for each door: Or you could sense the current with a modified relay module and .......... go to 1), do not pass start and do not collect £200.

[Elanlover]

This isn't dead by the way. Just taking a back seat at the moment.

[HJ2]

A Back seat in an Elan ?


I still follow this with much interest!

[GeoffSmith]

A quick update - it's taken a bit of a back seat due to Bluetooth ElanScan development and my father's Alzheimer's however:

It looks like the original replacement relay module idea is a non starter as I have yet to find a suitable relay that could be easily adapted to incorporate current sensing to detect the end stop current increase. The other option is to sense the current at or after the B1/B2 fuses but I've yet to find where it would be sensible to hack into the wiring and there's the issue of having to handle 20A and doubling up the sensors for LHS and RHS so: I'm looking at the possibility of using solid state switches (with current sensing) in place of the relay modules, but they need to be designed to handle 20A and handle lots of noise as the motors are very inductive.

I may just ditch the whole current sense philosophy and rely on the inbuilt motor overcurrent shutdown then program the timings to suit via my Bluetooth link.

[P@ulW]

Wow! That's amazing. I've still got all sorts of more basic things to do to my car, but I just want to say that this sort of input shows this forum at its best, and trumps the heated interchanges another thread has recently thrown up. Hats off!