Shorter than it should be :(

[Simon_P]

I wouldn't waste any time - The insurers will have already moved your car on - if you ever want to see it again you need to act fast

Do you suppose its already at Douglas Valley?

Having had 2 cars written-off by insurance companies - if more than 48 hours passes you won't see it again. It is in the system and they will be extremely unhelpful - their loyalty to their contractor is far greater than to their customers.

I would like to know what PJ are doing to assist?

[ashm]

Do you suppose its already at Douglas Valley?

Better not be - I have expressly stated to the insurance that I haven't given up any rights to the car (it still has a load of my stuff in it!).

When my first Elan was written off, the recovery bloke who came to pick it up told me to remove anything I wanted to see again, regardless of whether I bought the car back for salvage, as in his experience it would probably already be being stripped out by the time I saw it again...

As it turned out, it hadn't been seriously interfered with, except for being left in the weather with the windows down.

Adam

[dapinky]

Well, there's good news, and bad news.......

.....I have had a 'robust discussion' with the claims handler at KGM, which gave me the following information:-

1) They think they can do what they want with MY car - and it has already gone to their Salvage people.
2) Said salvage yard is in Canvey Island (even though they have a yard in Avonmouth).
3) I can't have it back.
4) It will be sold by auction (it's already listed on their F***ing website!!!)
5) If i wish to dispute the 'value' then i must instruct an 'Independant Engineer' from a list they will provide for me (how can that therefore be truly independant?) - at my own expense. Said engineer will only examine the vehicle in my presence - so they want me to pay their man to look at MY car, in bloody Essex (still, I suppose I could stop for a cup of tea in Saffron Walden).
6) IF the engineer agrees it is worth more, they will CONSIDER upping the offer, and contributing towards my expenses.

I asked them how this set of 'facts' fitted in with Criminal Law, in regards to the Theft Act whereby they have already "assumed the rights of ownership", and was told that they always do it that way.
When I asked where abouts in their policy document it states that they can do it, I was told that it doesn't state it, but she can send me details of another document where it is shown. (I asked how exactly this equates to the principles of clear an unambiguous wording as demanded by the Motor Insurance Bureau, and a clear interpretation of 'What happens next?' in their Guide to Claimants).....
She didn't know.
I asked when I could expect the car back on my drive, she said I won't get it!
I asked about the return of my property from within the vehicle, and she said I should have removed it all before the car left my home - even though it was only going to the Lotus Approved bodyshop in Bristol for an initial assessment - but she will ask the salvage yard if there is anything in it - There'd better be a set of tools, a brolly and a car cover plus other bits and pieces!!!!

I asked if she could explain why the photos sent to me from the salvage yard showed damage to the front bumper and the FOS wheelarch, and she said it must have already been like it (It wasn't!), and why the vehicle appeared to be stored outside with the windows not fully up - she said that it didn't matter as it was a Cat C write-off

Again I stated that it was MY car, and I wished to exercise rights of retention (she went silent for the first time) then stated that I would need to buy it back, plus collect it from Essex - I don't really think so, love!

Her whole attitude was one of 'I'm right, you can p1$$ off' and she was extremely condecending - right up until the part where I asked her if the call was being recorded, and she said "It's unlikely that my calls are being recorded - It's only the initial claims which get saved", until I explained that it was therefore lucky that I record ALL of my telephone calls, for the avoidance of doubt at a later stage.... It went quiet again.....

I asked her for the address of the Complaints Department, seeing as it wasn't in either the Policy Document or published on their website (again, clearly in contravention of the MIB rules), and explained that all documentation and voice recordings would be sent to that department as soon as the matter is resolved, or if it wasn't resolved in a reasonable time, would be sent to the Financial Ombudsman Service (which WILL cost KGM £500 as an initial 'investigation fee').

At this point she became courteous, nay, even polite - but said she was bound by 'the rules'. So at that point I decided to terminate the call.


Next stop was to phone Peter James brokers - they couldn't have been more different, and the specified Claim Handler (Maria) phoned me back very quickly.

They were unaware of the situation I am in, having received the initial claim and passed it on to KGM to resolve. She listened to my tale of woe, asked what sort of sum I would settle for, and agreed that I was being reasonable.

We formulated a plan whereby she would phone Alan Morgan at Club Lotus (to whom I had sent an email earlier this week) to chase that up - he never got it, but has now had it re-sent from a different email address and is making enquiries.

I also obtained a 3 page letter from my local car club who know both me and my cars, giving their 'valuation' based on the pre-incident condition of the individual car - not just an advert in Autotrader. Seeing as KGM accept valuations from the club Technical Officer for "Agreed Value" policies, they may have to accept what he says in this case - but we'll see.

Basically, all paperwork, pictures, letters have gone to Maria (and Alan @ CL) and she will take up the issue with KGM for me.

In the meantime, I have received a cheque from them for £3150


As such, I would advise anyone who has got a policy with KGM to consider getting an "agreed Value" on it, or go to a different company - I certainly won't use them again, but I am more than happy with the service from Peter James.


Also, I would suggest that anyone who wanted any of the 'good bits' off the car keeps an eye on the 'cars for sale by auction' page of the salvage company www.hbc.co.uk/auction-models/LOTUS/ELAN/Car%3A%3ALight%20Commercial.html with a view to buying the whole thing before it goes to DVB - i was originally offered it for 20% of the value, but they have now decided they won't sell it to me (but I'm still fighting them on that).

TBH, I am at the stage where I'm not bothered about having it back if it hasn't been stored dry, and has additional damage to it anyway, as it's more hassle than it's worth to have to get it back from Essex on a trailer, dissmantle it and scrap the remainder - if i'd actually needed the parts myself, I may have more interest, but everything that the red one has on it, the blue one does aswell.

That said, if it goes to auction, it is probably well worth a few quid to someone who needs the good bits (wishbones, roll hoops, re-trimmed interior, new hood with ALL rubber seals, 2 good doors, very good engine/box) who has the time/space to strip it down. As they have put it as a Cat C it would need a full VIC inspection before it could go back on the road, and would have a certain reduction in value due to the Cat C anyway, so probably not worthwhile - but the choice is yours!

[Dave Eds]

:(

not good.......


surely having had older cars than the elan you should have always left it in gear......doh!!!

I once saw one roll across a Yorkshire pub car park!

[dapinky]

I once saw one roll across a Yorkshire pub car park!

Luckilly there were enough of us to catch it before it hit any of our cars

[Rice crispy]

Dave, Canvey island is only 25 or so miles from me so if you want things collected let me know and I will get them and look after them till we meet up at an event or send them if you want.

Could take some spanners/screwdrivers if there are something simple to recover as well.
David

[rip]

KGM's attitude sucks.
When my Primera was Cat C'd, the insurance company assumed they would keep it. They had already shown signs of incompetence by then so I refused to send them my v5 because I did not trust them. I told them this too. I would have investigated suing them for theft had it not been returned (not sure if I would have got that to stick though). Like yours, many items of mine were left in it.
I got mine back shortly after. My audio system was intact but they had stolen my lighter & also a door seal. I complained immediately about the lighter & never got a response but I did not notice the seal for several months.
They forgot to charge me the agreed £50 for buying my car back so I had it repaired & got another 3 years use out of it

Surely yours cannot become their property until they re-imburse you anyway? Since you have not yet agreed on a value, they cannot have done this, so it is not yet theirs to do with as they wish? I think you've got a good case to pursue them for theft.

[dapinky]

Ian,

I fully agree with your comments, but I'm not sure that KGM are actually too different from any other company these days (from what I've heard).


Dave,

Thanks for the offer, but they took the car there, they can bring the contents back! (why should you have to go a 50 mile round trip to sort their ineptitude). - That said, If I get to a stage where I am in dispute over the current condition of the car, vs it's pre-incident condition, I might request someone local to pay a visit with a camera (all expenses paid!).

Also, if there are any bits you particularly want yourself, and can get off the car easily (hazzard switch? Window switches? Dump valve? Roll hoops? Rear wishbones? - oops, they may notice the hoops, and probably will notice the 'bones....) then feel free to send me a message for me to arrange a suitable time for my own 'engineer' to visit to inspect the car, and have it made availlable to him


Anyway, back to the story so far......

I now have Alan Morgan (CL) and a local classic car dealer/restorer/valuer on side, and both have put pen to paper to agree that my car is not an 'average' elan, and has a higher value than they have offered. (They have both [independantly] given a figure that I am happy with). The matter is being taken up by Peter James (well, not him directly, but you know what I mean!) and a case is being prepared for KGM to consider.
I will not agree to their arbitrary timescales, and the matter will take as long as it takes to resolve - luckilly I NEED neither the car nor the cash at the moment, so their main thrust of getting me back on the road for the cheapest possible price doesn't enter the equation, and in the meantime, they can pay the salvage yard to store the car, or return it to me and I'll stick it on the driveway.

I still have the V5, service history, etc here and remain the OWNER of the car until it is resolved.

As an option, if anyone on here (in the local (Canvey Island) area or otherwise if you want the transport responsibility) wants the whole car as it is, let me know and I'll push to purchase the salvage rights from KGM at 20% of whatever final figure we agree on, and you can have it for that fee - the car is (was?) drivable when it left here - it drove onto the recovery truck - but is not roadworthy as it has loose floppy bits at the back and no rear lights, but may well get you home in daylight if you can rig up some temporary brake lights/indicators (the bulbs were still in place, and still worked, so it would only need some suitable red and yellow yoghurt pots and gaffer tape!!!!!)


Bottom line - ALWAYS HAVE AGREED VALUE INSURANCE - it's a bit annoying in that I always have had on the Triumphs, and used to have it on the blue elan, but Mrs P had the red one on her daily driver policy when it was her only car (using her full NCB) - and 3 years ago both elans went onto the same policy to save hassle and inconvenience - That isn't going to happen again.

[inkitin]

Dave, I'm sorry to hear about your trials and tribulations with your insurance company over this. I'm sure your intimate knowledge of law in this area will bring them to heel.

I'm encouraged, though, to note your very favourable comments about Peter James, because I'm also insured through them. The insurance company though, is MARKERSTUDY and I have an agreed valuation with them.

[Simon_P]

I'm encouraged, though, to note your very favourable comments about Peter James, because I'm also insured through them. The insurance company though, is MARKERSTUDY and I have an agreed valuation with them.

I would save being "encouraged" by Peter James until after a successful outcome - I would be rather more worried! Dave has already suffered the time and stress of sorting this out himself. For an insurance company that believes in "Personal Service" and claim to be "as Passionate as you" it is rather hard to explain how Dave is unhappy and having to do the leg work, while his car is on Canvey Island... yet they didn't know about it. Good to hear they have pulled their finger out now though!

I am however very encouraged by the comments about Alan Morgan and Club Lotus - Independent help and advice just when it is needed! If you are not already a member join!

Dave, they all go to Canvey Island because it is miles from anywhere and you are supposed to give-up, and not cause them any more inconvenience.
When they work out how much your car is actually worth they may decide not to write it off!

[inkitin]

I would save being "encouraged" by Peter James until after a successful outcome - I would be rather more worried! Dave has already suffered the time and stress of sorting this out himself. For an insurance company that believes in "Personal Service" and claim to be "as Passionate as you" it is rather hard to explain how Dave is unhappy and having to do the leg work, while his car is on Canvey Island... yet they didn't know about it. Good to hear they have pulled their finger out now though!

I was basing my comments on the facts as stated by Dave. Peter James are not an insurance company they are an insurance broker. As such, they act as an intermediary between the actual insurance company (in this case KGM) and the insured. Consequently and correctly any claim is passed over to the insurance company to deal with and only then if there are subsequent problems, as there are here, would Peter James expect to become involved again. As Dave stated :-

Next stop was to phone Peter James brokers - they couldn't have been more different, and the specified Claim Handler (Maria) phoned me back very quickly.

They were unaware of the situation I am in, having received the initial claim and passed it on to KGM to resolve. She listened to my tale of woe, asked what sort of sum I would settle for, and agreed that I was being reasonable.

We formulated a plan whereby she would phone Alan Morgan at Club Lotus (to whom I had sent an email earlier this week) to chase that up - he never got it, but has now had it re-sent from a different email address and is making enquiries.

So, as soon as Dave made Peter James aware of the problems they reacted almost immediately as well as sympathetically and co-operated with Dave in formulating a plan. i.e. they got involved. I'm not sure any more could be asked of a broker at this stage. I imagine some brokers would wash their hands of the whole thing and say sorry, it's between you and the insurance company.

I read this as "encouraging" in relation to Peter James. Whether Dave ultimately gets satisfaction is down to the insurance company, hopefully under pressure from Peter James

Maybe I've read it incorrectly but that was how I saw it.

[dapinky]

Let me try and put some perspective on the above comments, and try to not let them be taken in an incorrect context (although with my inane ramblings, it's easy to see how that may occurr).

I am more than happy with the support and help I am getting from Peter James - they are the Brokers, NOT the insurers.

It is the actual Insurers (underwriters?) that I'm getting the hassle from - KGM Insurance.

I (subject to a suitable ressolution) would be happy to use Peter James in the future, but would NOT be happy to have the policy placed with KGM.

All of this is subject to the dissclaimer that ANY OTHER insurance company may well act in a similar manner, but I have no personal experience to draw on other than this one.

As is mentioned above, the Club Lotus membership fee is more than covered each year with the discount I get on the actual Insurance policy with Peter James, together with the many other benefits of 'belonging' - ie, access to their Track Day events, Donington etc etc - and this latest support is just another unexpected benefit which I would hope no-one else will ever need, but it's nice to know it's there.

[dapinky]

Oops - I appear to have been writing my comments while Roland was already posting his!

A bit of a duplication, but hopefully NOT contradictory.

[inkitin]

Oops - I appear to have been writing my comments while Roland was already posting his!

A bit of a duplication, but hopefully NOT contradictory.

Same hymn sheet comes to mind!

[Rice crispy]

Dave,

Thanks for the offer, but they took the car there, they can bring the contents back! (why should you have to go a 50 mile round trip to sort their ineptitude). - That said, If I get to a stage where I am in dispute over the current condition of the car, vs it's pre-incident condition, I might request someone local to pay a visit with a camera (all expenses paid!).

Also, if there are any bits you particularly want yourself, and can get off the car easily (hazzard switch? Window switches? Dump valve? Roll hoops? Rear wishbones? - oops, they may notice the hoops, and probably will notice the 'bones....) then feel free to send me a message for me to arrange a suitable time for my own 'engineer' to visit to inspect the car, and have it made availlable to him
.

Dave,
Many thanks for the offer. I was looking to get the bits for you that you wanted as you are one of the most helpful people on here and have done me a favour in the past and I like to return them if I can and it wouldn't be my spannering skills happy to go and take pictures if you want
David

[Simon_P]

Guys,

I'm only basing my comments on the level of service I expect and receive from my Brokers.

If you are happy being left to sort claims out yourself then that is fine - Just not sure what you are paying for.

Consequently and correctly any claim is passed over to the insurance company to deal with

Not in my experience - I have never been asked to contact the insurer directly - All handled professionally by the broker - well except for Admiral who although efficient forgot who their customer was.

[inkitin]

Simon

Which broker do you use? My own insurance is coming up for renewal soon, so I'll also give them a try.

[dapinky]

Simon,

I appologise if I sounded argumentative with you, it wasn't meant to be that way.

In 35 years of driving this is my first ever need to make a claim (except for a broken windscreen), and would have expected it to be a simple process with my broker taking the initial details (which they did), then handing it over to the Insurers to sort it out..... which is where it became the saga it is at the moment

As such, it never even ocurred to me to make further contact with Peter James until this week - and once I did so, they have been more helpful than i would have expected....

As I say, I'm a bit of a newbie at these things, but report as I see it, hopefully others may benefit from my bad experience.....

...Like Roland, I would always be happy to get details of a good broker to try, but at the moment, I can't actually fault Peter James, but as you correctly pointed out - only a final resolution will show whether such faith is rightly placed.

[Simon_P]

Hi Roland,

You may have noticed the edit to my earlier post - decided it probably wasn't helpful.

Currently with Hagerty for 3 cars and the Elan is now with Adrian Flux. (Hagerty don't do daily drivers)
I phoned PJ and they didn't get back to me.
I have had some interesting insurance requirements over the past 20 years. (not my driving or claims records which are both good) I moved to Hagerty when they doubled my cover and halved the premium. My requirements and the premium filter out most insurers, but Hagerty said we expect those sorts of requirements from classic car enthusiasts (hallelujah!). Plus the person that answers the phone is usually a car enthusiast themselves- so much easier when you are explaining mods.

I was with esure on my daily drive for 5 years but sold that and use the elan daily at the moment. so moved to flux.

Had a small claim last year esure dealt with everything - The repairer phoned me to book the repair - They weren't competitive for me with the elan but, they were consistently the best for the A4 and the 159. I believe their sister company is the underwriter.

Dave,
Not at all - I feel your pain hence my earlier comments - I've had 2 cars on Canvey Island! When the earlier poster commented did I think it was already at Douglas Valley? I wrote No Canvey Island ! then changed it to something more helpful The brokers sorted both of them out - the valuation was acceptable both times.

As such, it never even ocurred to me to make further contact with Peter James until this week - and once I did so, they have been more helpful than i would have expected....

And so they should be! I appreciate that you have to fill in forms and do some admin for a claim but specialist brokers like PJ should have at least given you a call after a couple of weeks to check everything was ok. esure do!

Lets give them the benefit of doubt for the time being and see how they perform putting things right.

[inkitin]

All OK Simon and thank you for the information on brokers. I'll give them a try next month when I have to reinsure.

I have arranged car insurance in the past, through brokers, where claims handling was an optional extra at additional cost. I suppose that in the end, as is usual, we get what we pay for.

As both you and Dave say, it'll be interesting to see the outcome of all of this and who comes out with bouquets and/or brickbats!