One touch window up/down control

[Elanlover]

Ok folks, I need some input from interested members on how the operation of this "system" could work. At this point, I'm looking for opinions on how the window button should operate and what these operations will do. As I see it, there's three possibilities based on three distinct "actions" you can do with the current window switches. They are:

1) holding down the button (either direction)
2) "tapping the button for a specific time duration (either direction)
3) double tapping the button (likely in the down direction)

These 3 actions are very distinct and can be used to provide the 3 window functions being discussed in this thread including:

1) manual control of the window in either direction
2) an automatic full travel of the window to completely close or open it (side dependant)
3) a "re-seal" operation that drops the window then closes it again

Keep in mind that while the window is running full up/down a tap on the button stops this action. Now, the question is which of these actions should control which function? That's what I'd like opinions on please. For the record, here's what I think.

1) tapping for 1/4 second or less gives the full open/close operation depending on which directions you've indicated of course
2) holding for more than 1/4 seconds gives you the manual control that we all have now
3) a double tap on the down direction (within half a second or so) gives you the "re-seal" function

With regard to #1 and #2, they could be reversed (holding gets you the full up/down action) but I think its better if holding it gets you manual control so its easy to drop the window half way. On #3, I'm hopeful a simple automatic operation (when the door is opened/closed) can be created but a manual ability to trigger this would also be desirable. One sub question on this would be do we want it side dependant? In other words, does the double tap work to do both windows at the same time or only dependant upon which window switch you hit. At some point, when (if) we are getting closer to a finalized design with some people indicating their interest I will move it to a group buy thread.

Thoughts and opinions?

[Fetnas]

I think the way you've described is spot on, tap for auto, hold for manual (which is what we do now) and double tap for reseal. This is basically the way modern cars do it with the added bonus of the reseal function.

Keep up the good work

[novacaine]

sounds awesome. I like the sound of the re seal

[Elanlover]

Anyone else before I finalize the design of the controls on this?

[dunnlor]

I also like the reseal feature, especially with the possibility to integrate it into the open/close door action.

Thanks for your efforts.

Tom

[Elanlover]

Ok then, I'm going with the following unless someone provides a good argument otherwise.

1) tapping for 1/4 second or less gives the full open/close operation depending on which directions you've indicated of course
2) holding for more than 1/4 seconds gives you the manual control that we all have now
3) a double tap on the down direction (within half a second or so) gives you the "re-seal" function


Still to be determined (and needing people's input) are the following items:

1) Should the manual trigger for the re-seal function work on a per door basis? In other words, should using the driver’s side switch trigger the re-seal on the driver’s side only? This could be tedious if you want to do both windows instead of just one side.
2) If we don’t go with the above (using a switch would then do both windows) should the manual trigger for the re-seal function be operated from either window switch or just the driver’s side (I’m thinking driver’s side only but this will need some thinking as we are dealing with cars on both side of the pond).
3) Do we want to include some form of sensor to automatically trigger the re-seal function when the door is closed (in addition to the manual method)?

With the above questions keep in mind that more sophistication adds more complexity and cost. So, at least one of the conversations going on in your head should be about what could I do without?

For example, do we "need" the re-seal function to be automatic triggered by sensors or can you live with having to double tap a switch? How often do you think a re-seal action will occur? If a lot, then automatic is nice but will involve some form of sensor. This sensor could get complicated because you only need the re-seal to operate automatically if the roof is up AND the windows are all the way up so we should ideally sense for both or the window position at a minimum. Do we "need" the re-seal to work both windows from one switch? Do we "need" it to only operate from the driver's side (some thinking will be required to make this work for cars on either side of the pond).

Thoughts please?

[novacaine]

A manual reseal should be good enough, more parts more problems! Its a nice function to have but not a necessity, I would be happy with just the one tap down/up function for both windows

[dapinky]

As far as I'm concerned, the re-seal from the switch is somewhat irellevant - can't see it getting much use.

I would like the "re-seal" function to work from the Central locking electrics - i.e - unlock the car, window drops 2" (both windows, ideally) - i can put it up again from inside if I actually get in....

...and then when you lock the car, window goes all the way up (from wherever it is at the time).

With this sort of system, it opens up lots of possibilities for a different water seal around the window, using rubber 'U' sections or whatever - without it, we are stuck with the seals we have....

....and not wishing to hold you to ransom, Blair - but without such a facility I probably wouldn't be bothered about buying it, as one-touch opening is nice, but not essential to me (I have a similar syastem on the Vectra which drops the windows when it's unlocked, and puts them up when it's locked - love it!)

[Elanlover]

As far as I'm concerned, the re-seal from the switch is somewhat irellevant - can't see it getting much use.

I would like the "re-seal" function to work from the Central locking electrics - i.e - unlock the car, window drops 2" (both windows, ideally) - i can put it up again from inside if I actually get in....

...and then when you lock the car, window goes all the way up (from wherever it is at the time).

With this sort of system, it opens up lots of possibilities for a different water seal around the window, using rubber 'U' sections or whatever - without it, we are stuck with the seals we have....

....and not wishing to hold you to ransom, Blair - but without such a facility I probably wouldn't be bothered about buying it, as one-touch opening is nice, but not essential to me (I have a similar syastem on the Vectra which drops the windows when it's unlocked, and puts them up when it's locked - love it!)

The problem I'm having with any form of "automatic" resealing is that it may not be appropriate for it to happen most of the time. There are only a handful of conditions when, in my mind, it needs to happen automatically. Like.............

1) If the roof is up (if its not why do we need to do a reseal at all?)
2) If the windows are all the way up (if they are not we don't need to "reseal" if there's no seal to begin with?). In fact, we could forego the roof up sensing and go only with the windows being up because if the roof is up but the windows aren't we, again, don't have a seal to begin with.
3) When the door CLOSES. we need to reseal only if the windows are up and the door then closes.
4) It really needs to happen only when the windows are up all the way since the action will be down an inch then up an inch. If the windows are down all the way (or halfway) then every time you open and close the door the windows will go up and down which is a bit of a waste. And, it'll leave your windows up an inch if they were completely down all the way after this action.

When I factor in all these requirements I find myself wondering if automatically resealing is actually necessary (but nice if it can be done easily). With regard to your comments Dave I'd like to think we can build a system that as many people can use (and will want to buy to help out a group buy if we get that far) so your comments aren't holding anyone for ransom. Right now, my car alarm has a feature to close the windows with a button when I set the alarm so I know what you're asking for and why. But, for it to be an "automatic" function raises some questions in my mind as there may be times when you don't want the "windows all the way up" action to run. There will likely be many times when you don't want the windows to drop 2 inches when you unlock it either (like in a rain storm).

However, I'm more than happy to enquire about the possibilities. It may simply be an issue of programming the module once (its available as a feature for everyone) and its up to the individual to wire it up to work that way if they want to.

[epipete]

I think that the key point Dave made to my thinking is in regard of being able to source an alternative solution to the seal problem if a system was designed to facilitate his points then any higher costs incurred might be augmented by a reduced cost in seals - a win/win situation.

[GeoffSmith]

When I designed my (analogue) automatic drop/lift circuit, I triggered it off the interior light switches because the S2 alarm is pretty inaccessible and I was considering adding window closed sensors when I get the doors apart to replace the speakers. Looking at the SE circuit diagram, I see there are a couple of switches feeding the CDL which you might be able to tap into. Don't ask me what they do because I ain't got the foggiest!

[Elanlover]

One other thing I forgot to mention. With this module the windows would be controllable for up to 30 seconds after the ignition was turned off. So, to summarize the feature list so far:

CONFIRMED FEATURES:

1) window controls will work for 30 seconds after the ignition is turned off
2) tapping for 1/4 second or less gives the full open/close operation depending on which directions you've indicated of course
3) holding for more than 1/4 seconds gives you the manual control that we all have now
4) a double tap on the down direction (within half a second or so) gives you the "re-seal" function


FEATURES UNDER CONSIDERATION:

1) Should the manual trigger for the re-seal function be operated from either window switch or just the driver’s side (I’m thinking driver’s side only but this will need some thinking as we are dealing with cars on both side of the pond).
2) Do we want to include some form of sensor to automatically trigger the re-seal function when the door is closed (in addition to the manual method - also, there's no way to tell which door is opening without some major surgery so we'll scrap the idea of having the auto reseal be door dependant)?
3) Windows wind all the way up when doors are locked
4) Windows drop an inch or so when unlocked for easier door opening over the seals (and possibly new seals with a different profile).

Again, looking for comments on the above features under consideration at a minimum.

[Elanlover]

When I designed my (analogue) automatic drop/lift circuit, I triggered it off the interior light switches because the S2 alarm is pretty inaccessible and I was considering adding window closed sensors when I get the doors apart to replace the speakers. Looking at the SE circuit diagram, I see there are a couple of switches feeding the CDL which you might be able to tap into. Don't ask me what they do because I ain't got the foggiest!

When I read the electrical manual it talks about 2 switches. One for door ajar (clearly labelled on the schematic you posted the link to) and the other is the lock sensing to provide a lock status signal to the ECM.

[GeoffSmith]

...also, there's no way to tell which door is opening without some major surgery so we'll scrap the idea of having the auto reseal be door dependant)?

It's only three connections and two wire cuts.

Window fully up detection could be done with a software or hardware latch:-
Set the latch if the current shunt detects motor stall current AND the direction is up.
Reset the latch if the down motor has been activated.

[Fetnas]

Again, many thanks for the good work being put into this.

Regarding the reseal function, I would be happy if the windows dropped a cm or 2 when the door was opened and then went up by the same or a little more regardless of whether the roof was up or down or the window wasn't fully closed. Having the auto reseal function whenever the door is opened and closed has the benefit of improving the window seal when you park the car and aren't able to double tap the button. I personally see a greater benefit in having an auto reseal function over the manual reseal as it isn't that much of a problem to press the down button for a couple for seconds when you're in the car and then press the up button until it seals again. I'm really hoping for a solution that provides a better seal between the glass and the rubber whenever the door is closed regardless of whether you're in the car or not.

I'd be happy to tap into the door ajar switch to have this function and I wouldn't be bothered if both windows resealed when one door opened over only the open door, which ever of these option is the easiest if the auto reseal is doable.

And by the way

[Elanlover]

After discussion with the Great Pink One I'm coming around to the idea of locking the car causes the windows to go up all the way. Why bother locking the car if you're leaving the windows down anyway? Personally, I always do the windows up when I lock the car whether the roof is up or not. Also, dropping them a bit when you unlock (presumably to eventually enter the car) isn't a bad ide either. Not just because it might make sourcing new seals (with a different profile) easier but it might lessen the strain on the current seals a bit when you open the door. Also, I think the windows will need to be active much longer than 30 seconds after the ignition is off. We'll need time for things like putting the roof up, alarms that auto-lock the car after 30 seconds, getting stuff out of your car, etc.

Unless otherwise convinced I will add these features to the growing list below.

CONFIRMED FEATURES:

1) window controls will work for 180 seconds after the ignition is turned off
2) tapping for 1/4 second or less gives the full open/close operation depending on which directions you've indicated of course
3) holding for more than 1/4 seconds gives you the manual control that we all have now
4) a double tap on the down direction (within half a second or so) gives you the "re-seal" function
5) windows wind all the way up when doors are locked
6) windows drop an inch or so when unlocked for easier door opening over the seals (and possibly new seals with a different profile).


THINGS NEEDING FEEDBACK

FEATURES UNDER CONSIDERATION:

1) Should the manual trigger for the re-seal function be operated from either window switch or just the driver’s side (I’m thinking driver’s side only but this will need some thinking as we are dealing with cars on both side of the pond).
2) Do we want to include some form of sensor to automatically trigger the re-seal function when the door is closed in addition to the manual method
3) Do we want the resealing to be door dependant (opening the driver's side door only runs the reseal on that side). Some surgery to the wiring will be required.

PRICE

I've been asked to get a sense from people what they might be willing to pay for such a device. The answers may change some design elements, available features or even kill the project. So, please give me a REALISTIC sense of what you might be willing to pay for such an item. Answers such as "free", 5 bucks, half a quid, etc. will earn you the evil smilie

[Elanlover]

.................I've been asked to get a sense from people what they might be willing to pay for such a device. The answers may change some design elements, available features or even kill the project. So, please give me a REALISTIC sense of what you might be willing to pay for such an item. Answers such as "free", 5 bucks, half a quid, etc. will earn you the evil smilie

Sooooo......................free then?



I think I will move this officially to the Group Buy section and see where we take it.

[GeoffSmith]

sounds awesome. I like the sound of the re seal

Unfortunately I don't think it will work because (like me) you have an S2 and there aren't the microswitches in the door that feed the SE's CDL module.

[Elanlover]

Unfortunately I don't think it will work because (like me) you have an S2 and there aren't the microswitches in the door that feed the SE's CDL module.

WHAT!

Now you tell me.

I'm looking over the electrical manual I have and I see a schematic for the CDL that's marked S2 - non alarm. It shows two micro switches per door and looks identical to the SE schematic with two exceptions. The S2 - non alarm version does not have leads running to an alarm system from the motors (as the SE shows - presumably to trigger the alarm if the door opens?) and there is no connection out to the inertia switch to unlock the doors in the event of a rollover. What I do not have is a page for S2 - alarm and I believe several people have the S2 with stock alarm system. Do you have that Geoff? I couldn't see it on the wiki.

[GeoffSmith]

I told you up there!

When I designed my (analogue) automatic drop/lift circuit, I triggered it off the interior light switches because the S2 alarm is pretty inaccessible and I was considering adding window closed sensors when I get the doors apart to replace the speakers. Looking at the SE circuit diagram, I see there are a couple of switches feeding the CDL which you might be able to tap into. Don't ask me what they do because I ain't got the foggiest!

I believe that all the UK S2's all have factory fitted alarms and the diagram is on the Wiki under Circuit Diagrams (S2) > Page 29 : S2 Alarm System

http://wikilec.9600.org/index.php/Elect ... s_.28S2.29

The lack of switches was what was causing me a problem which was why I butchered the interior light circuit.