What to do about heavy rust around the outriggers

[Enright]

Brilliant replies - very comprehensive in both of your cases, thank you very much. I now feel a lot more at ease (or perhaps that's just resigned) about tackling much of this work myself.

I can certainly get rid of the rot, and might even be able to source the correct metal and fabricate replacement panels and parts myself. Welding them in place is another matter, but when considering the costs against some welding gear off eBay and a bit of practise in an unseen area, I could probably talk myself into taking the plunge.
Then there's the satisfaction of having comprehensively beaten a weak point that I was previously unaware of - or at least hadn't seriously considered.

For any of you who want to keep your cars but occasionally find water getting in and soaking your carpets, I would urge you to have a delve about in the bottom corners under the A and B-posts ASAP. If you can stop the rot before it gets any worse, and then thoroughly waterproof the area, you'll save yourself a LOT of expense and/or stress.

[epipete]

Brilliant replies - very comprehensive in both of your cases, thank you very much. I now feel a lot more at ease (or perhaps that's just resigned) about tackling much of this work myself.

I can certainly get rid of the rot, and might even be able to source the correct metal and fabricate replacement panels and parts myself.

This is what I did before giving it to my garage whereupon they stung me for the welding, I didn't do it myself because of lack of knowledge, equipment and experience but also I wanted someone who recognised the risks accociated with welding in proximity to fibreglass, plastic etc.

So things there to consider if you are doing it yourself, and if you are buying the skill in then things to check (price, competence etc) of the welder.

[Enright]

Last night, as my roll of 2m x 1m x 10mm closed cell foam had arrived (this was the eBay item: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/221721435063? ... EBIDX%3AIT), I removed the underlay/insulation from my newest Elan.
It's possible to do much of this just by taking the sill covers off and folding back the carpet from the outer edges, but I had the seats out which makes the job a lot easier (and anyway they're only 4 bolts each which need copper-greasing sooner or later to stop them from siezing to the aluminium spacers)

Despite it being a really nice condition Elan with reasonable seals, a downpour the previous night still left the footwells swimming.
Judging by the corrosion along the entire length of the outriggers (but especially in the corners) and the rust that had seeped into the underlay, it obviously wasn't the first time it had got wet.

As per Dave Pink's suggestion I drilled a few strategically placed 6mm holes in the floor - to let more water out than will ever come in.
Wherever there was a dipped "rib" in the tub floor, I drilled a hole at each end of it (imagining where the lowest point would be if the car was parked on a slope), and also drilled one in each front corner of the footwells.

I found that if I was careful with my nesting of the shapes, a metre square was just about enough to produce replacements for the most vital pieces of underlay. I left the couple of rectangles under each seat til last because the car would have to be parked level with about an inch of water in it to get those wet, and they don't hold moisture against any metal anyway.

On this car I'm making a concious decision to cover up the damage in such a way that it minimises it getting any worse, and pledge to come back to it later.

* The closed cell foam and some spray glue has thus far just cost me about £15 per car, and a few hours of effort.
EVERY OWNER NEEDS TO DO THIS AS A BARE MINIMUM
It is a fundamental issue that is part of the design of the car.

They get wet inside. The water has nowhere to go so it gets retained in the spongy underlay. The heater cannot dry it out - you'd toast your feet beforehand. So the moisture rots the out-riggers, which house the jacking points and the seatbelt mounts.

DON'T PUT OFF SPENDING THE TIME AND MONEY MENTIONED HERE "*" ON PREVENTATIVE MAINTENANCE.
I did and now it's going to cost me much more in time, effort and money than if I'd attacked it years ago.

In fact I think I'm going to make this topic a "Sticky", because it will affect every Elan out there sooner or later.

[HJ2]

Pictures please! Or it did not happen

Sounds like another job for this winter. Better do it now then when it's too late.

[Enright]

I posted some pics on the previous page of my original one, which is slightly worse. Now that the clocks have changed it's difficult to get better ones of the new car - by the time I get home it's already dark, and they wouldn't be much different anyway. I'll have a go later though...

Unless water has never got in, or your car has consistently been stored in a dry environment, it's probably already to late to stop the rot from taking hold. But by taking the above precaustions it's possible to at least slow the rapid (and ultimately structural) deterioration to a crawl, and then have time to treat and properly seal the whole lot once and for all.

[basher]

As per the request further back, please feel free to use my outrigger repair photos in any way you wish if you feel the need.
Best of luck with the project Neil, it might be worth sticking a camera into the outrigger cavity to see what it looks like inside.

[Rambo]

Hope you sprayed Dinitrol or Waxoyle in the cacities whilst you had the carpets out. It might keep the tinworm at bay a little longer

[HJ2]

Sorry, I was not very clear indeed.
I ment pictures of the placement of the sound dampening puzzle pieces

[Graaf]

This thread is making me very worried about taking my seats and carpet out to look at the outriggers

[epipete]

This thread is making me very worried about taking my seats and carpet out to look at the outriggers

Just do it. It is not technically a problem if caught early enough and I don't know a situation where it hasn't been; and the solution is well documented here.

Remember, when it senses trouble 'the Ostrich may put its head in the sand but it still gets its arse kicked'

[Artaban]

Graaf,
Its a good time to do it with winter and wetter weather approaching. Its very easy to do so long as all the seat bolts undo without a problem. Copperslip them back in when re-installing the seat. Even if the seats don't want to come out you can peel the carpet back in the footwells to at least see the front of the outriggers. Another trick, and very quick to do, is to remove the trim panel on the back parcel shelf by the B pillar on the drivers side and reach down into the space in front of the rear wheel arch. You will be able to get your hand very close to the seat belt mount. If your outriggers are beginning to go then you'll probably feel a pile of rusty metal at the bottom. Its not foolproof but if you bring up a fistful of rusty metal its time to remove everything and sort it quickly. Alternatively remove the trim panel and put one of these down:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-5-10-M-US ... kjmSEsxkug
Probably useful for inspecting the lower door hinges as well as these are another trouble spot.
Remember this isn't something that will make the car look prettier but it may save your life in a crash. It would be madness to ignore it.
Andy

[Enright]

Sorry, I was not very clear indeed.
I ment pictures of the placement of the sound dampening puzzle pieces

Oh right, in that case here goes:
I took this last night - there was a little more than 1m square remaining from my original 2 x 1m roll.
The pieces laid out on top of it are the critical ones to be replaced, which leaves the top section "spare".
It might be advisable to use some of the spare foam to replace some of the lower front sloping section in the footwells, as it can also slurp up some water and retain it against metal, but I haven't got around to this yet.
You can see how the original pieces have got discoloured from where rust has seeped into them, which is a clear indicator of where they've got wet and stayed that way for a long time.

Martyn,
Give me a yell when you get chance. I have a couple of examples that I can easily show you as to how bad it can get, but conversely how easy it is to check them and arrest any further damage. Meanwhile, because you've got a decent car now, and there's still one of mine that I haven't done yet, if you want to go halves on another roll of foam then the offer's there.

[Graaf]

Graaf,
Its a good time to do it with winter and wetter weather approaching. Its very easy to do so long as all the seat bolts undo without a problem. Copperslip them back in when re-installing the seat. Even if the seats don't want to come out you can peel the carpet back in the footwells to at least see the front of the outriggers. Another trick, and very quick to do, is to remove the trim panel on the back parcel shelf by the B pillar on the drivers side and reach down into the space in front of the rear wheel arch. You will be able to get your hand very close to the seat belt mount. If your outriggers are beginning to go then you'll probably feel a pile of rusty metal at the bottom. Its not foolproof but if you bring up a fistful of rusty metal its time to remove everything and sort it quickly. Alternatively remove the trim panel and put one of these down:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-5-10-M-US ... kjmSEsxkug
Probably useful for inspecting the lower door hinges as well as these are another trouble spot.
Remember this isn't something that will make the car look prettier but it may save your life in a crash. It would be madness to ignore it.
Andy

Thanks for this. I didn't realise that those cameras were socheap!

Getting the seats out will be the next job after drawing up the house extension as I also want to give the leather work a bit of tlc.

[HJ2]

Thanks, this is what i needed

[Graaf]

Sorry, I was not very clear indeed.
I ment pictures of the placement of the sound dampening puzzle pieces

Oh right, in that case here goes:
I took this last night - there was a little more than 1m square remaining from my original 2 x 1m roll.
The pieces laid out on top of it are the critical ones to be replaced, which leaves the top section "spare".
It might be advisable to use some of the spare foam to replace some of the lower front sloping section in the footwells, as it can also slurp up some water and retain it against metal, but I haven't got around to this yet.
You can see how the original pieces have got discoloured from where rust has seeped into them, which is a clear indicator of where they've got wet and stayed that way for a long time.

Martyn,
Give me a yell when you get chance. I have a couple of examples that I can easily show you as to how bad it can get, but conversely how easy it is to check them and arrest any further damage. Meanwhile, because you've got a decent car now, and there's still one of mine that I haven't done yet, if you want to go halves on another roll of foam then the offer's there.

That would be great, thanks.

Happy to go halves.

I'm working away for the next couple of days but will give you a shout over the weekend if that's OK?

Martyn

[chrisP]

From my work and welding on the bottom door hinge over the past few weeks. I remember somewhere reading that zintec plate was originally used in the Elan's construction, something like this : https://www.themetalstore.co.uk/product ... ntec-sheet

I would also recommend a zinc based weld through primer paint when preparing the area.

Hope that helps someone a little


Also as a guide to whether you have a problem with your particular car. A test that i have used is pushing one of the telescopic magnetic pickup tools down the B pillar, where the soft top fixes to. You should be able to get to the jacking point and any loose rust acts as an indication of what to expect when removing the carpets.

second 'Also' I found that Lotus had already drilled some holes in the floor pan of my car and remember it might be in the service note updates from the time.

[andy123]

Hi

Viewing the thread on outrigger rust, it would seem sensible when viewing a car prior to purchase to inspect the outriggers. I've submitted a request for access to manuals so unable at this stage to confirm how difficult it is to lift the carpet. Is it just a simple matter of loosening/removal of the sill covers to enable the carpet to be rolled back, or does it require a substantial strip of the interior ?

Regards

Andy

[Fredjohn]

Or insert a small USB camera down the B posts.

Readily available from ebay for about £20

[Artaban]

Try one of these: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Waterproof-7m ... Sw9mFWILaH
Are you buying or have you already bought? If you are buying I'm not sure a prospective seller would allow you to peel back the carpet to the extent you would need to see the rust on the outriggers. I think you'd need to remove the sill trim and the B post trim in order to peel the carpet back in the footwell and at the sill jacking point and even then you may not see enough to determine the extent of any problem. To do it properly you would need to remove the seats so I think that wouldn't be an option when buying a car.

Personally I would remove the plastic panel on the rear parcel shelf behind the drivers seat to access the B post. You can reach down and touch the back end of the outrigger from here so if you pull up a handful of rust you might need to investigate further. The little USB camera will work with a small laptop so that makes it a lot easier to see whats going on. However nothing beats pulling back the carpets in broad daylight with the seats removed to see the full extent (or not) of the problem. If buying remember everything is fixable if the price is right. I think even the most enthusiastic of owners will admit that there is always something else to do on their Elan so weigh it up against everything else about the car. A lot of the problems on the Elan are becoming age related and not mileage related now so if buying look more at what has been spent in recent years than the mileage of the car.
Andy

[Graaf]

after reading this thread and becoming somewhat alarmed, I decided to strip the carpets out and check the outriggers. The passenger is not far from pristine but there is some minor(?) rot to the drivers side near the jacking point.

Anyway, inside and at the bottom the outrigger is a triangular section immediately behind the rusty sections and I was wonder if people thought it necessary to drill and rustproof this section.

Thanks