by dapinky » Sun 26.08.2018, 12:19
THE LIST.
1. HJ2
2. Clemo
3. Steve A
4.daveiow
5. Tuga2112
6. Elaverick
I have added the names of those who has expressed a bit of an interest during the thread, just to keep a single list (we dont want the 'list police' to get upset)....
.... also, in the interests of keeping the 'list police' happy, it is important to expressly determine what the purpose of the list is at each stage during the (proposed) endeavour - and to properly explain who is up for whatever.....
Clemo has gone to a lot of trouble over the past few months to track down as many of the 'old' & 'forgotten' bits which some of us already posses, others would like, and many will aspire to if money was no object.
It has long been an aspiration of LEC (and I'm talking about many years here, not just recently) to try to 'centralise' the availability of many of the items which have previously been developed by members, but they have either moved on, or no longer wish to do the work involved in resurecting a project - this is in no way intended to undermine ANY active/dormant members who have done the graft, and are able to offer the parts for a project themselves - and "we" will NOT be developing anything which is in competition with anyone else....we are an owners/enthusiasts community, NOT a business. Our interest is to try to keep as many of the cars going as possible, and upgrade them as and when appropriate.
Many of the previous 'group buys' were done either as an engineered project in its entirety, or a simple 'bulk purchase' of available items with a (hopefully) financial saving to those involved - otherwise it is a bit pointless, really.
"We" want to continue this ethos, and encourage anyone who wants to try and organise something to crack on and do it - there is no requirement to run it past anyone, or to seek approval (unless you are ripping off someones intelectual property without their permission - in which case, "we" may try to assist with advice as we see appropriate.
Ideally (and this will probably never actually happen), any 'designs' will become the property of LEC - but ONLY after the original owner wishes to provide them (ie, if and when they no longer offer the bits themselves, and are not able to sell/gift the rights to a person of thier choosing). We are certainly NOT expecting anyone with a viable business idea to just give it away to "us"..... why should they?
Anyway, we have to accept that the (many) items developed by BB (the man who shall not be named in public) are lost forever.
Many other ideas have been either superceeded (Wilwood brakes??), or are commercially available elsewhere (Piper exhausts/Cybox exhausts/Hi-Spec brakes (Via PNM Engineering), Various shock absorbers, Suspension bushes, rear wishbones, rear hubs etc etc) - but there are a few 'Holy Grail' items which are not currently being offered anywhere.
There have been a few projects to address the rear light panel options, and I am not going to say that any one is better or worse than any other - each has approached the idea in a slightly different way, and some are more pleasing to the eye than others, using whatever lamp units the designer sees fit - they were really done on an 'individual' basis for personal use, so to claim one to be 'better' than another is an ignorant possition to start from. I would not seek to claim that anything I do is 'better' than anyone elses way of doing the same thing, but it usually suits me, and if it helps someone else out by copying it, or adapting it, then that is great.
That is why I take my hat off to those members who go out of their way to develop an idea, and then make it available to others on here - often at little or no profit.... but if they wish to make a profit, then that isn't a problem as long as it is known to be a 'business interest' - we all have to eat and keep a roof over our heads, and people are never forced into buying anything.
Okay, back to this particular project, Simon Carrier (Owner of SPC designs) no longer owns an Elan (but hopefully will get one again in the future), and is not offering to remake any of the bits he has previously made - notably the Hardtop and the Roll Hoops system - anytime soon.
He has 'moved on' the jigs, moulds, plans, knowledge to others.
This is where Clemos 'Sherlock Holmes' adventure comes in - he has managed to track down the current wherabouts of the bits required to get the hoops remade, and (more importantly) spoken to both the current owners, and Simon himself. All parties are up for a 'Gentlemens Agreement' whereby the necessary bits will be centralised and production initiated.
IMPORTANT BIT
LEC cannot be the producer/seller of any items as "we" are NOT a business - "we" are an owners forum/club/community. There would be all sorts of issue should we wish to become any form of business - including, but not limited to - taxation issues, GDPR requirements, accountability, web hosting platform etc etc..... and we aint going there! (unless everyone wants to pay a membership fee and then allow those who run it to draw a salary???? - nope, didn't think so!).
This is why any 'group buys' have always had a point of contact who becomes the 'seller' - everything from Mugs, Embroidered Polo Shirts, Brake Pipes etc etc are bought from a member who may or may not round up the price and pay any excess into the LEC kitty (which is small, and used to buy things for the shows "we" attend - Banners, printing, postage of tickets, tea bags etc). Other projects are purchased directly from the seller 'off LEC' where that person is a business and has their own shop. We are happy for anyone who wishes to sell things that way to advertise their availability on LEC (and if they wish to offer a bit of a discount, then we love that) - but we cannot get involved in private business deals.
As such, Simon is more than happy for 'his' designs to be made available to members of the community, but LEC will not be the producers/sellers of them - a quandry which has been solved by Clemo offering to collect the parts of the puzzle and then tender for them to be remade.
Clemo wishes to keep the project as transparrent as possible, whilst needing to retain a central point of 'control' in order to ensure quality compliance. This is important for a number of reasons - the 'hoops' were developed by Simon and marketed as 'SPC Hoops' - "we" wish to continue with the same manufacturing process, using the original suppliers/fabricators where possible, so that the finished item will be indistinguishable from a 'first generation' product. That means that they can still be referred to as 'SPC Hoops', and NOT seen as a bit of a knock-off. The Hoops were never intended for total roll-over protection, and have NOT been submitted to any form of testing - they are NOT sold as 'roll-over hoops'. That said, Simon is highly qualified in Competiton Vehicle Safety, and the parts are designed to the same level that he would approach any other roll cage/hoop design project - but not submitted for testing, and not sold as a 'safety device'.
In order to keep to the ethos of a LEC Group Buy, it is necessary to gauge interest in any project - so this list is born - there is NO requirement to agree to sell a kidney to fund the project, and anyone is free to add or delete themselves from the list at this time. Very few of us have the spare cash to agree to anything without knowing the price - or even a rough estimation of the price - and this is no different. it is an expression of interest, no more, no less.
At some point it will become a more 'fixed' list, but we are nowhere near to that stage yet - and never before costs are determined.
The whole project has costs involved in it, and it is often understood that any expences will be shared by participants 'on the list', and a final sum will be published which is the cost of getting the item - this will include all known costs, but may or may not require adjustments either way (delivery/fitting/taxation payments etc).
Clearly, if the material costs are £100, fabrication costs are £100, painting is £20 then the item will cost a few quid more than £220..... but it won't cost £1000. (ALL THESE ARE EXAMPLES, NOT PROJECTED COSTS!!!!).
There will be costs involved in collecting the jigs/moulds/plans, and these will be made publically available once known - transport from Skye to Torquay ain't likely to be a single first-class stamp!
No-one will be expected to stump up any cash before costs are known and an individual decision can be made at that time. "we" are going to be funding the initial phase in the interests of keeping the idea alive and availlable for the future.
At some point in time (once the bits of the jigsaw are in place), and costs can be determined, then a price will be published (metal prices vary, and fabrication may or may not be as simple as thought, so a single trial piece will probably be made as part of the tender process). Only at that time will there be another list (or adaptation of this one) happen, and people will then be asked for a financial 'committment' - dunno what yet, but 10% is probably a 'standard' sort of idea?????
The purpose of the deposit is only to ensure that we know how many people are 'in' and how many are 'out'. If the list only has 3 people who are 'in' then the costs may make in impractical to continue, but if 20 people want it, then happy days!
Clemo will have his own idea (once known) of how many are needed to make it viable - fabricators may only see it as worthwhile if they are making 5, 10, or whatever, units at a time - likewise cutting the metal bits etc.
For anyone who thinks that they can save a few quid by not getting on the list, and get on the next one once all set-up costs have been absorbed by the initial group, it aint going to happen! Thats not to say that there will never be another list, but at that stage all costs will again be added up and divided by participants on the list, and it may be higher or lower than the first list. If it is higher, it will cost each person more.... but if it is lower, then the price will be 'adjusted' so that those on the initial list are not paying more than later purchasers, and any excess of funds will make its way to the LEC general kitty as a personal donation from Clemo.
This keeps the business side of it seperate from the community side of it (I think!) - and as transparent as it can get.
Dave
Just the one now, but this one's mine! - and it will be finished eventually..... - but also temporary custodian of a project until it is finished enough for Angie to drive it
...oh, and a 2006 Freelander destined for the jungles of The Gambia - 4500 miles across roads, desert and tracks - what could possibly go wrong?
@ blowing up campervans