Where to procure synchros?

[John Syracuse]

Hi all!

It's been a while since I've been here, but I've finally after years been able to get back into getting my Elan fixed up and back together! I've finally gotten the engine out and the transmission in pieces, I was pretty sure that the synchros are bad and just to see if there was compatibility, I purchased a Geo Storm transmission rebuild kit that included synchros.

The kit showed up and first thing I noticed is that only one of the bearings in this kit appears to match what is in the Elan. I can't tear the input and output shaft assemblies down to where I can access the synchros, but it doesn't look to me that the synchros that came with the kit are going to work in the Elan. This is the first I've ever torn apart one of these Isuzu transmissions though (swapped them several times, never seen inside), so some of me wonders if the parts I was sent were incorrect, but I really have no way to confirm for sure.

I don't know how anyone else has been handling rebuilding transmissions, so I guess the short question is, does anyone know where I can procure new synchros for an Elan? Alternatively, does anyone know if the Elan and Geo Storm / Isuzu Impulse synchros are supposed to be the same? Right now I don't know if I'm supposed to keep looking around for synchros or tell the company that sold me the rebuild kit that the parts are wrong.

Any help is appreciated.

Chris

[John_W]

Which GEO storm gearbox did you buy the rebuild kit for? Having said that, I would have expected the bearings and yellow metal synchro rings from any GEO Storm to fit. See my recent write-up and Robietherobot reference.
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=14484&start=101

BritCarNut could give more info but I think he’s a bit busy with his doctor at the moment. Hopefully he’ll be along in a minute as usual.

[John Syracuse]

Which GEO storm gearbox did you buy the rebuild kit for? Having said that, I would have expected the bearings and yellow metal synchro rings from any GEO Storm to fit. See my recent write-up and Robietherobot reference.
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=14484&start=101

BritCarNut could give more info but I think he’s a bit busy with his doctor at the moment. Hopefully he’ll be along in a minute as usual.

The kit I bought is part number BK194WS.

https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/pro-king-manual-transmission-rebuild-kit-includes-syncros-bk194ws/20150556-P?cm_mmc=ET-_-Trans-_-Shipped-_-General#utm_source=et&utm_medium=trans&utm_campaign=shipped&utm_content=general

I had called them up ahead of time and confirmed that is was a fit for a Geo Storm, but only one of the bearings in this kit actually matches what's in the transmission and the synchros don't look like they match at all, so I'm pretty sure this kit doesn't work. I've found a few websites though that claim this kit is a fit for Geo Storms, so I'm not sure what the problem is if they sent the wrong kit or what, but that's what I'm trying to get to the bottom of.

Easiest thing for me probably is to just be pointed to exactly where someone has successfully bought something that fit.

Chris

[John Syracuse]

Which GEO storm gearbox did you buy the rebuild kit for? Having said that, I would have expected the bearings and yellow metal synchro rings from any GEO Storm to fit. See my recent write-up and Robietherobot reference.
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=14484&start=101

BritCarNut could give more info but I think he’s a bit busy with his doctor at the moment. Hopefully he’ll be along in a minute as usual.

The kit I bought is part number BK194WS.

https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/pro-king-manual-transmission-rebuild-kit-includes-syncros-bk194ws/20150556-P?cm_mmc=ET-_-Trans-_-Shipped-_-General#utm_source=et&utm_medium=trans&utm_campaign=shipped&utm_content=general

I had called them up ahead of time and confirmed that is was a fit for a Geo Storm, but only one of the bearings in this kit actually matches what's in the transmission and the synchros don't look like they match at all, so I'm pretty sure this kit doesn't work. I've found a few websites though that claim this kit is a fit for Geo Storms, so I'm not sure what the problem is if they sent the wrong kit or what, but that's what I'm trying to get to the bottom of.

Easiest thing for me probably is to just be pointed to exactly where someone has successfully bought something that fit.

Chris

Okay, I may actually have figured this out. The part number I read on the box they shipped says "BK149WS" and the one I bought is "BK194WS", so before anyone goes looking further into this, let me get on the horn with Advance Auto and tell them they sent me the wrong parts.

If after I get that corrected I still have problems I'll let you all know.

Chris

[John_W]

Dyslexia Rlues KO!

[Brit-Car-Nut]

Chris: By syncro rings, I assume what is usually called baulk rings. 3rd, 4th and 5th use the same baulk rings while 1st and 2nd use a different part number.

There are two different gearboxes used in GEO Storms. The syncros are definitely different between the kits. I believe it had something to do with the different baulk rings that were used and the actual gear ratios are different in most of the 5 different car models I found that used the same basic gearbox.

If none of the parts match your gearbox, then Advance Auto got it wrong.

I know the 5th gears and baulk rings from a GEO Storm Single Cam gearbox are the same as those in the M100, but never looked any further. The baulk rings are the same for 3rd, 4th and 5th, but I don't think the gear ratios are the same. I would have to dig out my charts to see which gears look to be the same as the GM models. Lotus has little information available what other GM/GEO/Isuzu cars used the same parts.

It would be best if you explain why you thought the syncros were bad as compared to a clutch disc problem as the issues feel very similar, but need completely different solutions. From my experience, the baulk rings stand up really well, so scraping between gears might be caused by another ailment.

Splitting the gearbox case requires a strong hand and a lot of patience. Make a lot of room on the workbench. Getting the shifter rod slugs/pins back into the right locations will be a puzzle even with the limited guides I found for the GM gearbox versions.

Feel free to email me directly and if verbal communication is better, send me your phone number.

[John_W]

There you are... I said he’d be along in a minute!

[John Syracuse]

It's been a long time since I drove the car, so I don't know which shifts it happened on, but at least two of the three shifts from first up to fourth would make a grinding noise on the shift unless you let the RPMs drop almost to idle, then you could ease it into the gear without a grinding noise. The clutch never had problems grabbing.

I actually already have the transmission out and in pieces on my workbench, so way past the point of no return. Now that the thing is apart, I can tell you the clutch is not the problem, the car has 115k on it but the clutch does not look even close to original. I also found when I started draining out fluids that the geniuses before me filled the transmission with gear oil, not with motor oil. Just yesterday I brought the parts over to transmission guy to get his take on things, I don't have the input or output shafts disassembled, but he did comment that if the synchros use fibrous friction surfaces (don't know if these ones do, but thought so) then you can't use gear oil, you need to use motor oil. I told him it had gear oil in it, he was said then any damage to fibrous friction surfaces is done and if the transmission uses them, he doesn't need to see them to know they'll need to be replaced.

I've had plenty of people comment to me that it might not be the synchros, but all indications I've perceived point in that direction and since I knew I was going to take the transmission out anyways to change to the 4XF1, I just figured rebuild the transmission while it's out and then know for sure that any problem I have is not with synchros.

As for the two synchro rings, tech support with the rebuild kit already walked me through that and we got the part number for the one that makes sense based on the Lotus manuals. Literally the problem looks like it's just that they sent me the wrong kit, cause the kit I received has the part number BK149WS while the one I order and is shown on the website is BK194WS. This is consistent with the transmission shops assessment when the saw the input and output shafts and the box of parts I received, he rummaged through it and after a couple minutes said the kit was wrong, showing me that synchro diameters make no sense and only one of the five bearings in there matches anything on the shafts. I figured it was wrong, but just wanted someone with more experience to confirm.

The lesson in all of this is to confirm the part numbers of what you receive, which you'd think I'd have learned from when I bought a quaife on ebay and it was the wrong one, but I guess I learn things slow.

Chris

[Brit-Car-Nut]

The baulk rings are not the fibrous friction type, just conical brass.

Per the workshop manual, the recommended lube is "Fully Synthetic 5W/30". Mobil 1 RTS 9775 is the listed "Approved" oil.

This is from Randy's Web Page: http://www.lotuselan.com/transaxle_oil.html (I fixed a few spelling errors)

Changing Your Transaxle Oil

This procedure runs through changing the transaxle (transmission) oil on your Elan. Lotus recommends renewing the oil every 30,000 miles. The oil is "Mobil 1 RTS 9775 fully synthetic SAE 5W/30"--I have called the Mobil Company and found that this is indeed the regular Mobil 1 motor oil found everywhere. The refill capacity is 1.9 US quarts.

The oil should be changed after driving, while it is still warm. This assures the impurities are held in suspension.

Tools Needed

Socket wrenches
Funnel
3 ft of small diameter hose
2.0 quarts of transmission oil (Mobil One 5W/30 motor oil)

Draining Old Oil

Park car on level ground!
Place catch pan under tranny.
Get yourself under the car and remove the drain plug from the left hand side of the final drive housing, beneath the output shaft (see illustration).
Make sure car is then level to drain the oil properly.
Allow the oil to drain thoroughly before replacing the plug (with a new washer if necessary), and tighten to 29 ft-lbs. (39 Nm).

Adding New Oil

To check the oil level or to add oil, the speedo driven gear assembly must be removed, and the oil level indication on the plastic bushing inspected (see diagram). Check the oil level with the engine off and the transmission cool enough to touch. The speedo driven gear is located at the rear of the differential housing and is accessible from above.

Withdraw the speedo driven gear assembly with the cable attached, after releasing the single screw securing the retaining plate.
Add the new oil until the level is midway between the high and low marks on the bushing (about 1.9 qts.).
Replace the retaining plate and tighten the screw to 4.5 ft-lbs. (6Nm).

Notes

The biggest problem is coming up with a hose/funnel to put the oil in with. The filler hole is small, so your hose can't be any bigger than that. Don't go to an automotive store, because all the hose they have there usually has a large amount of insulation--meaning the inner diameter is smaller than you think. Instead go to a home store that has cheap thin-walled plastic tubing. Then find a small funnel that will fit the hose you just bought.

Have fun saving money and learning about your Elan.

[John Syracuse]

I've actually changed the transmission oil on Isuzu Impulses and Geo Storms at least half a dozen times at this point, so I'm aware of the 5W-30 requirement and process, but thanks regardless!

I haven't taken apart the input or output shafts yet, but the fifth gear baulk ring was just a brass ring without fibrous surfaces. I'm not sure what the inside of the synchros will look like when it comes apart, but it'll be a moot, new ones are going in there.

Appreciate the well wishes on saving money and learning, though I feel that if I was interested in saving money, I shouldn't have bought a Lotus Elan for a hobby car, and if I was interested in learning, I shouldn't have stuck with another Isuzu-powered vehicle, haha!

Chris

[Brit-Car-Nut]

I know it is a bit late, but here is a page I found years ago with kit info for the Isuzu gearbox rebuild parts and the years they fit.

http://www.drivetrain.com/parts_catalog ... 3_mk7.html

Maybe some of their descriptions will help you figure out which kit you would need and you can compare that to what you ordered...

I think you would need kit: DTSBK194WS

[Simon_P]

I've actually changed the transmission oil on Isuzu Impulses and Geo Storms at least half a dozen times at this point, so I'm aware of the 5W-30 requirement and process, but thanks regardless!

I think the point was that Lotus were insistant that it was fully synthetic 5W/30. RTL 9775 is a motor oil. It was replaced by Castrol TAF-X 75W/90 which is a Fully synthetic GL4 gear oil....Possibly because motor oil wasn't up to the job.. Both motor oil and gear oil have been specified so the use of either won't be a problem. For reference the difference in viscosity rating is only due to the temperature that gear oils are tested at.
See
http://www.lotuselancentral.com/repair/transaxleoil.htm
And of course the wiki.

[Brit-Car-Nut]

Sorry for the oil info. MG swayed between thin oil and gear oil and never came to a conclusion. It looks like GL4 is the better choice.

[John Syracuse]

No apologies on the oil info or clarifications, it's actually very interesting. I'm curious where does the recommendation for Castrol TAF-X 75W/90 come from? I followed the link, but there's no reference to the origination of the information. Not saying it means it's not from a credible source, but a part of me has some anxiety taking at face value a post-product release change in recommendation by Lotus for a transmission that was designed by Isuzu that in all other models of vehicles I've worked on calls for 5W-30, including even the subject Elan. I'm by no means an expert on motor oil vs. gear oil, but there must be some sort of difference between the two that prompts the use of one over the other, otherwise why would you sell them as different products? Did Isuzu or Lotus generate the recommendation? Is anyone here running Castrol TAF-X 75W/90 and if so has there been any noticeable difference?

Either way, I've never strayed from Mobil 1 5W-30 for the other Isuzu transmissions and they never had any problems. This Elan transmission is the first Isuzu transmission I've seen filled with gear oil and also happens to be the first one I've experienced any problems with (albeit inherited problems from when I bought the car, it came filled with gear oil and it came with the grinding on shift problems, as well as a billion thousand other problems...), so I'm inclined right now to stick to 5W-30.

Chris

[Simon_P]

Chris,

They are basically the same thing, except that one has additives that reduce gear wear and is a lot more expensive, and the other doesn't and isn't.

I shan't indulge in your anxieties

they are completely different use cases, your assumptions are invalid.

TAF-X has been out of production for some time.

You would be better asking if anyone else uses motor oil
In their gearbox.

[John Syracuse]

Chris,

They are basically the same thing, except that one has additives that reduce gear wear and is a lot more expensive, and the other doesn't and isn't.

I shan't indulge in your anxieties

they are completely different use cases, your assumptions are invalid.

TAF-X has been out of production for some time.

You would be better asking if anyone else uses motor oil
In their gearbox.

Is it your intention to come across arrogant to a guy that's just trying to exercise some due diligence? I live in a country of alternative facts, half our news comes from the Russians, I gotta question the information I find on the internet, give me a break!

In all seriousness, I hadn't thought to ask about people using motor oil in their Elan transmissions because (as I understand) the original specs for the Elan called out motor oil, which unsurprisingly is not so coincidentally the exact same as every other Isuzu JI body I've worked with, so it just seems like the answer to that question is yes. The only way an Elan has gear oil in the transmission is because someone put in there after Lotus (or Isuzu, or Russians, I still don't know who) apparently changed its mind on what to recommend.

I know I've always used Mobil 1 5W-30 in every Isuzu Impulse and Geo Storm transmission I've worked with, just as the shop manuals called out for, and almost every one of those transmissions was mated up to a higher output engine than the Elan. They never had problems and this has been an entire thread about using Geo Storm parts in a Lotus Elan transmission given how many of the parts are the same, so it really doesn't seem like there's something fancier to think about with the Elan transmission. Now I'm reading the transmission is supposed to have gear oil in it, but the only Isuzu transmission I've seen with gear oil in it is (drumroll) the one in my Elan having problems!

The only source of information I have to indicate that I should use gear oil instead of motor oil is this website, which claims it got the information from Lotus and at least so far I haven't been able to find how that information was obtained, so I decided to ask and the only response I got to that question so far is yours asserting that I'm making invalid assumptions and implying I'm too ignorant to warrant a response. I would contend it would be even more foolhardy of me to assume that just cause a website says something is so means something is so. At least for now, looks like it's five dub thirty for me!

Understand that there are some differences in additives, that makes sense how it would affect cost and the product, thank you for that information and that TAF-X is out of production anyways.

Chris

[John Syracuse]

I know it is a bit late, but here is a page I found years ago with kit info for the Isuzu gearbox rebuild parts and the years they fit.

http://www.drivetrain.com/parts_catalog ... 3_mk7.html

Maybe some of their descriptions will help you figure out which kit you would need and you can compare that to what you ordered...

I think you would need kit: DTSBK194WS

Mr. Brit-Car-Nut,

The kit I ordered was BK194WS, which I'm 99% is the same as the DTSBK194WS, I think that website just adds the "DTS" to the start of it to abbreviate their company (I've seen resellers of parts do this before). Before I ordered the BK194WS, I called the tech support for the supplier and they walked me through that it was for a Geo Storm with one-piece synchros, I told them my situation with the Elan and they told me to make absolutely sure I need the one-piece synchros for what I'm doing, I opened up the shop manual and they walked me through how to tell from the manual if they are one-piece or two-piece (since I hadn't taken apart the transmission yet). After confirming they were one-piece, I ordered the kit.

I'll let you all know when it arrives how much of it transfers to the Elan. Thanks again for the help!

Chris

[Simon_P]

You've got to question things on this sight because of the Russians.... Seriously? Give yourself a break!

Is it your intention to come across arrogant to a guy that's just trying to exercise some due diligence?

No, I'm just responding to your rather patronising earlier responses. John, gave you the detail, you told him that you had put oil in Geo's and Isuzu's at least half a dozen times. So I gave you the facts which you have chosen to question even though...

I'm by no means an expert on motor oil vs. gear oil

You asked some questions for which you were given detailed answers. You chose to ignore the advice and question the facts from a position of little knowledge. Might that be considered arrogant?

Your anxieties are around something that happened 25 years ago to which we will probably never know the answer, discussion would be speculation - sorry I can't help you, maybe you could ask the Russians.

I would contend it would be even more foolhardy of me to assume that just cause a website says something is so means something is so

So I have no idea why you came here asking questions. If you want due diligence you have a lot of reading to do, it is all on this site if you can be bothered to look!

At least for now, looks like it's five dub thirty for me!

I would just point out that 5W/30 is only the viscosity the additives will be completely different most of the useful ones for a gearbox have been removed due to environmental concerns, 5W/30 from 30 years ago is a different animal.

[John Syracuse]

You've got to question things on this sight because of the Russians.... Seriously? Give yourself a break!

Is it your intention to come across arrogant to a guy that's just trying to exercise some due diligence?

No, I'm just responding to your rather patronising earlier responses. John, gave you the detail, you told him that you had put oil in Geo's and Isuzu's at least half a dozen times. So I gave you the facts which you have chosen to question even though...

I'm by no means an expert on motor oil vs. gear oil

You asked some questions for which you were given detailed answers. You chose to ignore the advice and question the facts from a position of little knowledge. Might that be considered arrogant?

Your anxieties are around something that happened 25 years ago to which we will probably never know the answer, discussion would be speculation - sorry I can't help you, maybe you could ask the Russians.

I would contend it would be even more foolhardy of me to assume that just cause a website says something is so means something is so

So I have no idea why you came here asking questions. If you want due diligence you have a lot of reading to do, it is all on this site if you can be bothered to look!

At least for now, looks like it's five dub thirty for me!

I would just point out that 5W/30 is only the viscosity the additives will be completely different most of the useful ones for a gearbox have been removed due to environmental concerns, 5W/30 from 30 years ago is a different animal.

Simon, first of all, on your statement on questioning information on this site because of Russians, might I remind that there's also fake news and liberal media, haha!

Secondly, thanks for clarifying that your tone is to patronize me. It wasn't mine to Mr. Brit-Car-Nut, I was thankful for the information and if you look back at this thread, you'll see that I have continued to be thankful. He's the one that originally gave me the info that I could use Geo Storm synchros for the Elan in the first place, when I first got my Elan, he called me up to welcome me to Elan ownership. I just tried to point out to him that some of what he was providing me wasn't necessary because it was stuff that I have experience with. You're saying my response to John was patronizing because he gave me the answer to the questions I was asking, but my questions were about gear oil. John's post and the link he provided never said anything about gear oil, you're the first person to mention gear oil in this thread, not John. He apologized for providing information on oil and I said it wasn't necessary to apologize and thanked him for it, AGAIN! I don't see how you're coming at me from an angle of being patronizing, I thought saying thank you was enough but apparently it's not, I've been THANKFUL for the information being provided, by you inclusive!

Arrogance wasn't my tone with you either, I just was trying to point out that what is apparently fact and not news to people here IS news and not fact yet to me, I tried to explain why it's news to me and that it goes against a LOT of experience I have. I maintain my statement that I am not an expert on the differences between motor oil and gear oil, I'm not, which is why I said it! You're telling me it's arrogant to question information from a position of little knowledge? That's exactly what you're supposed to do when you're in a position of little knowledge, and if you're in a position of experience, it is ESPECIALLY what you're supposed to do. You've been ignoring that my position of "little knowledge" is accompanied by lots of experience, what is the big deal that I have a questioning attitude as a result of that? I feel like if you took some time to look at this topic from my perspective and experience, you'd see that there's absolute sense in my questions. The arrogant response would have been me telling you you're full of it and wrong, but at no point have I said that or made those assertions, I have rather tried to broaden my understanding of the subject.

Until your last post I read just now, I was unaware this happened 25 years ago and I also didn't know your view that discussion at this point would be speculative (and therefore there's probably not a definitive answer to some of what I'm asking). You could have just said those things instead of "shan't indulge" my anxieties and asserting that I've made invalid assumptions and that would have been fine. Which by the way, I still don't know what assumptions you believe I'm making that are invalid, but at this point it probably doesn't even matter. Regardless, thanks for providing the clarification on additives and history, it is helpful and I appreciate it.

Chris